[00:00:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: Welcome. This is the Sales IQ Podcast. My name is Luigi Prestinenzi, and I'm on a mission to help salespeople be the best sales professionals they can be. Each week, we'll bring you a different message from thought leaders from around the globe so we can help you master the art of selling.  

That's a quote by Robert Kiyosaki. And this week, we're talking to Andy Paul, about why training and self. We'll help you be the very best sales professional you can be. This episode is brought to you by video. The online video tool for sales professionals. Video makes it easy for sales teams to turn text-based emails, interpersonal video messages, and we'll help.

Engage with your prospects and create an incredible buying experience for them, which will ultimately help you reach your pipeline and revenue goals. So do you search for favor? Get to bgr.com, sign up and start using video in your sales process.

As we move towards 2021, there's only a short period of time to capitalize on what has been for many very challenging 2020. It's really interesting because, or I come from, we've just come out of lockdown, one of the harshest in the world and, you know, for others, other people are going back into lockdown.

And I think we're going to see, you know, it's going to be a bit of a peak and trough, um, for many economies around the. And I think like, well, you know, this is, this is a once in a lifetime event, but to reality years, Selling often have those peaks and troughs and yeah, it might not be a crisis, but it can be very challenging why this week's episode is really important because we speak to Andy Paul and Andy Paul hosts his own podcast, and it's an incredible podcast.

It's had hundreds and hundreds of guests on the podcasts and Andy is very committed to the out of coaching and self development. And why are we going to talk about that this week? Because. The reality is in selling. You never stop learning. And if you get to that point where you go, right. I don't know. I don't need to know anything watch out because there could be a huge dip, a cliff in front of you.

Because every day sales is changing. Now know the philosophy of sales. In my opinion, hasn't changed for many, many years, but the way in which the buyers engage with us has changed. And technology is playing a big part of that. So whether you like it or not learning is a big part of the process. However, you can see learning from two perspectives, from a fixed mindset or a growth.

Yeah, I get the opportunity to talk to high performing sales pros around the world all the time. I love it. And I get so energetic when I speak to them. And one of the most common characteristics that I see is high performance. To learning. It's not like something that they do once a month or something that they do every quarter or part of an annual sales kickoff.

It's part of the operational rhythm. It's part of everything that they do. And they look for learning wherever they can. Why? Because just like a lead athletes, high performing sales pros are committed to finding that extra 1%. And when you think about that opportunity to learn and go, right, what have I learned during this global pandemic?

What have I done differently? That's going to enable me to be the best I can be. That's going to enable me to capitalize on the opportunity that sits in 2021, because in some economies they're bouncing back and they're bouncing back hard. Some are still struggling, both enable opportunity for great sellers.

And this is why this week's episode is absolutely awesome because Andy and I are going to talk. A variety of things, but you know, we really are going to talk about the art of self development, the art of being committed to your craft and being a professional. Remember anyone can work in sale, but you've got to earn the professional parts.

Well, my good friend came McLaughlin says, so when you to think about. Especially, as we say, 2000 and twenties, fast, fast being eroded, and you can either take some of those challenges and really learn from it because the reality is when we are in a point of challenge, when we are in the point of struggle, it's the best opportunity because we're in the area of growth.

It's where we really can sort of. Extra 1% within ourselves. So guys buckle up, get a pen and paper, cause this is going to be awesome. And Andy's got to share some incredible insight with us to help you be the very best you can be.

Welcome to the show.

[00:04:50] Andy Paul: Luigi, thank you for having me. Thank you. So I want to know, have you read all those books behind you?

[00:04:56] Luigi Prestinenzi: Not all of them. They just it's a green screen

[00:05:00] Andy Paul: or it is a green screen.

[00:05:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: They, my books on look, I'm getting through quite a few of them. I've read quite a lot of them. There's a couple of extra ones on eight to get into, but, um, but Andy, I'm very excited to have.

You want to have show mate, because I've spent a lot of time. I've spent a lot of hours on the train on planes. I'm in my car, listening to your podcast. It's been a great podcast. It's been around for a number of years. So I'm really excited. Oh mate. Fantastic. So yeah, I'm pretty pumped to actually, um, have you on the show and talk a bit about your journey and sure.

And, and getting to the, to the topic of coaching. But before we get into today's episode, we'd love to learn. You know, tell us a bit about yourself and how you got into the world of cells sales.

[00:05:46] Andy Paul: Oh, like a lot of people is an accident, right. And I graduated from college and had no idea what to do. And I like said no discernible job skills.

Uh, I studied history in college, so no discernible job skills while I did have, it was an insatiable curiosity and a competitive streak. And so somehow that lent me to, or led me to sales. So, um, yeah, and it, it sort of stuck. I wouldn't, I think after the first month I thought, oh my God, I can't get out of sales fast enough.

And then, um, slowly but surely it started to make sense or at least as they would make sense of it. And here I am over 40 years later still doing it.

[00:06:30] Luigi Prestinenzi: Wow. Well, you've got a pretty awesome story, right? Because the last five years you've been on a path of. Yeah. Putting out some incredible content, um, via your podcasts.

And recently you've had your podcast acquired, which is incredible, right? So

[00:06:46] Andy Paul: unexpected. Yes. For sure.

[00:06:48] Luigi Prestinenzi: You're the Joe Rogan of the sales industry.

[00:06:52] Andy Paul: I don't think I got a hundred million dollars. Um, yeah, we don't play with audiences quite the same size, but we on the podcast, you know, it's funny. I, I was inspired to start the podcast.

I was at a conference and I saw, uh, John Lee Dumas speak and he has this podcast entrepreneur on fire. It's a big podcast business startup podcast in the, in the U S and. Well, that's, that's not a pretty interesting and the idea of yeah. Talking to other people about their journey and what they've learned.

And it really has turned out. As I tell people it's doing the podcast is one of the most selfish things I've ever done because where else could I talk to now? 820 really smart people and continue to learn stuff myself. And about sales. Every time I talk to somebody or trust or leadership or management or coaching, whatever the subject is is I, I get to learn something.

So I've yeah. Yeah. This deep into my career. Uh, yeah, I've just been able to learn so much. It's just been incredible. So that's what keeps me going. Cause I talked to people like yourself and I said, learn something new and, and apply it to what I'm doing. So it's are the theme throughout my career was always sort of reinvention and.

Sold in the tech business for 25 years or starting my own company and always service choosing companies and products and industries that interested me that I had no grounding in at all. And some were extremely technical, like satellite communications. Yeah. I spent 15 years in the satellite communications business selling large complex satellite communication systems around the world.

I was an Austria. Probably over a dozen times, uh, working with Telstra and obsta Optus, um, as customer. So. Yeah, it was just, it was quite, uh, quite an adventure. And, um, yeah, I'll do the sales. I mean, just got to meet all these incredible people and go these incredible places. And so that's a reached a point where I was tired of the travel and about year 2000 and also.

Sorry, I've been gone too much. It was missing like a birthday, one of my kids' birthdays. And so I said, well, yeah, let's, let's change up. So it's real reinvent myself again as a consultant and did that for about 10 years and maybe a little over 10 years. And then, um, ended up moving to New York from Southern California.

And so it's okay now, what am I going to do? And that's where I wrote my first book and started blogging. I'd never blogged or been on social media at all. And, and yeah, so two books, 800 podcasts. I'm a big social media following just an incredible learning experience. Cause I didn't know how to do any of that.

And so, you know, it's been so much fun at a stage in my career. I saw my friends talking about retiring and, um, Energized the next frontier. One of the things I can learn. So it's been fantastic.

[00:10:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: My daddy is an awesome story and you know, I, I, I completely agree with you. I think, you know, when I started this podcast, um, one of the best things about this was I got to get to talk to the people that are.

The content and read their books and put into practice and then take that, you know, bring it to life. And I think you're right, it's such a selfish experience. And then you're able to turn that into some incredible content to help other sellers be the best they can be. So I've loved this journey. Um, so mate, talk to us a little bit about, cause I think one of the things I like about the content that you put out, and I probably think there is still so much area for improvement in this particular space.

Is the coaching space, right?

[00:10:42] Andy Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well, sales are general about coaching. Yes, for sure.

[00:10:47] Luigi Prestinenzi: I think our industry right now, um, more than ever before, right? I think a lot of people are looking at the tactics of selling, but the missing the fundamentals of selling and it's creating a bit of a gap, right? I'm in the market.

We're talking about how to send a great email, cold email, cold call cadences. Tech stacks we're forgetting. Well, actually, there's a pretty important part of that process, which is the soft school component as

[00:11:12] Andy Paul: well. Yeah. I like to say that we were spending way too much time and efforts, uh, focusing on top of the funnel prospecting and way too little effort focusing on the soft skills, the middle of the middle of the funnel, where the selling actually takes place.

Uh, so, and I give people example, you know, we've got all these great conferences, outbound, inbound. Trafficking versions and so on and so forth that are all focused on, Hey, let's generate those, those prospects, but you know, where's the conference on qualification. Where's the conference on discovery.

Where's the conference on needs analysis and that's where the action really takes place. Right? I mean, we, we actually are, I think are proving that we're actually using. With the technology and all that, we have the processes we have. We're actually pretty adept at developing opportunities. Uh, I think where we've lost a beat is we're getting to coaching.

As I say, this is we don't sell very well these days. And so it's like, I think what's happened is we've gotten so SAR flush at the top of the funnel in many SAS businesses, for instance, that, you know, their win rates are only 20% right now, their most qualified opportunities. They're closing a winning 20%.

Well, that's pretty low. We shouldn't, we should be able to do better than that. Um, and so, yeah, I think coaching certainly plays an element of that, where you have to help people develop to become the best version of themselves. And I think that we've, we've gotten away from that a service center. Tenant, but that we should have in sales.

And we started our paying too much fealty to the process instead. And you know, none of the day sales is a human business, you know, it's what happens when I talk with you, that makes the difference. And so, yeah, I believe coaching, I've done sort of a informal survey of people on my show and other people I know in sales and I asked them, I said, okay, other than your own experience, Yeah, what's been the biggest influence or who's been the biggest influence on you in terms of helping you learn how to sell and buy an overwhelming majority.

Everybody says, well, yeah, my coach or a mentor, right. And a manager. Okay. If that's the case, then why aren't we investing substantially more as a profession in helping people become better coaches? Yeah,

[00:13:31] Luigi Prestinenzi: it's interesting. Yeah, because yeah, you cause the data and there's a lot of really good data out there that shows that businesses, you spend more time coaching their win rates higher, you know, they, they, they actually, then the needle moves much more than businesses who don't invest the time in COVID.

[00:13:50] Andy Paul: Yeah, no, absolutely. I, that I've seen a couple of the same reports is that, that the single most effective thing you can do to move the needle on actual sales, individual sales performance is effective coaching. And so I've recently been using this, this question is sort of a stocking horse for people to start the conversation about what we're doing.

And coaching is saying, look, you know, in the U S we spent. $20 billion a year, roughly on sales training of which maybe 5% of that let's say a billion is spent on coaching our teaching managers, how to coach and become good leaders. And so I said, so let me ask you the question is if we, you know, take us as correct those surveys that say the most effective thing you can do to increase some individual performances, effective coaching.

So what if we took this $20 billion and flipped it on its head and said, look, we're going to spend $19 billion. Teaching managers, how to coach and we'll spend a billion on training salespeople. What do you think would happen with sales results?

[00:14:51] Luigi Prestinenzi: Might they get a multiply?

[00:14:53] Andy Paul: Sure. But I think it would for sure.

Cause I think we get. A very small marginal improvement from additional sales training of sellers, the way we're doing it currently. But if we could somehow scale the coaching and, you know, some takes on those $20 billion and for instance, I mean, yeah, just I'm, I'm a, I'm a huge soccer fan. And so, but the, it could be extended to sports teams in general, but professional sports organizations.

Have become very data-driven, they've become very specialized in the coaches they have on their, their staff. It's, I'm a huge deliverable fan and premier league soccer, but you want me to look at the coaching staff and they've got no liberal has got a coach for throwing. Yeah, they've got a coach for, you know, first team players that got up fitness coach.

I got a nutrition coach. They've got, you know, these specialized coaches. Well, why don't we rethink how we are managing sales? Because right now what we do is we say, oh, well, we've got the sales manager. And since they're in this position authority, somehow they must have this knowledge about how to coach and they.

And then yeah, you go high step, hire a sales director, we assume. Oh, they must have even more knowledge about mindset and motivation and performance improvement. And so they don't don't, we can't blame them. They've never been trained on it. So I think what we should be looking at is as one potential solution say, look, why if coaching is so effective and you can get this pretty immediate payback from it in terms of uplift and performance, why don't we have.

Specialized coaches as part of your sales staff, instead of assuming the manager is going to at all.

[00:16:43] Luigi Prestinenzi: It's interesting. You say they've got a couple of things first and foremost, I'm an I SEMA land fan. So I still, you know, I still can't forget the day that we were three nil up against Liverpool in the champions league final and we lost, I can't continue these chats, but anyway, I'm a massive AC fan made football is life.

Right? So talk about that. Another. Right.

[00:17:04] Andy Paul: I was on airplane watching that match by the way,

[00:17:07] Luigi Prestinenzi: bloody Steven Gerrard. Anyway, the, one of the tricks that are one of the things that I find that impacts sales managers is they often get elevated into a management role because they are good at selling. Right. Um, but the transition from selling to leading others is actually, it's, it's a very different role.

And. It's funny because I say it all the time. I was coaching somebody last week. Um, probably in the top 3% or top sort of, sort of three, three sellers, every single. And she started the month off really poorly, um, really poorly she's at the bottom of the leaderboard. And we listened to a couple of calls last week, very quick, call calibration.

She's had a few, you know, aha moments and now she's climbing and she'll probably get back into the top five by the end of the month. Right now that's a direct result. Not because I'm a good coach, but because she's been able to have an environment where she can in a safe environment, listen to something.

You know, have somebody ask questions, which helps her identify? Well, actually, yes, I'm talking too much. I'm not asking open questions. I'm completely ignoring what they're saying and I've, haven't defined the value and I've gone into, you know, solution mode to, um, she's realized that change the structure, bang and the results of change.

Right. Right. And I think this is where the challenge for sales enablement lies is that sales enablement was designed to provide. Assistance, but they're getting pulled to product. And training on product and specifications and, and they missing the core part of what their role has been designed to do, which has helped drive performance through coaching and, and use data to make, make improved choices.

Yeah,

[00:18:52] Andy Paul: absolutely. Well, I think, yeah, there's, there's confusion about the mission of sales enablement, I think. And, uh, yeah, I don't come out of the sales enablement space per se. Um, but. Yeah. I think the definition that we use on, on my program is that sales enablement is anything and everything that will enable a seller to have a knowledge based interaction with a buyer that the buyer acknowledges has value.

And so that's what people should be focusing on. And yeah, I think coaching plays a huge role in that because. Yeah, sales is an apprenticeship, right? We can have all the formal training we want, but people learn through observation. People learn through doing people, learn through doing with feedback and that's, that's all human driven.

And so, yeah, we need to be able to. Hopefully it gets the point where companies realize the value. And I think this is the stumbling block is people will say, oh, well, managers, aren't taking enough time for coaching, but really starts higher up the chain is the demands being put on the manager. Oftentimes don't leave the time available.

Right? I mean, if you're have a choice between satisfying getting this report done for your boss, who is paying your salary versus. Coaching your seller. They tend to default to satisfy in the boss and the boss should needs to be educated to say, look, this is not a good use of this person's time. We can.

First of all, we're gonna be able to automate a lot of these reports coming up with all the technology we have is they really need to focus their efforts on things that are gonna move the needle, as you said before. And so the. Push pull is, is one of the real reasons we've have the crisis, I think in coaching.

And so it's interesting. Just the last couple of weeks, I've interviewed a couple people on my show who have written books. You know, Hey, you just need to stop waiting for the company to provide this level of sport is you really need to become much more self-directed in your coaching. And so that's, this is sort of this movement you're sort of seeing the name nominally a self-directed.

Hmm, which is, yeah, you have to take complete responsibility for your development. Uh, if you want to be coached, then it's more likely you're going to find a peer to do it, then your manager. And, and I said, it's just a trend. That's like, I was talking to the author. I said, well, so you're just really giving companies a complete pass right on this whole thing.

And I think he's just being a realist and saying, we can hope for better coaches, but the way we're currently structured, the way we're currently investing in those companies is yeah. You as an individual really have to, um, take individual responsibility for your learning and actually finding somebody there'll be a mentor coach for you that may often be.

And so, I mean, you've talked about before of, of, uh, you know, like ring DNA that purchase my podcast is great conversational AI system, where you can, uh, you know, coach callers, our coach sellers through, through calls and so on. Yeah. One of the best ways to use that is to have peers listen, to calls of other, other sellers, and to coach them provide notes on the calls and expect to get that in return so that, you know, everybody has a quota, but as a goal, if I make calls, they're going to listen to during the week that aren't their own well, it's not only they're providing benefits to somebody else, but also by listening to other people, they're learning themselves too.

And by having to coach their learning, um, so. Yeah. I mean, I still have hope that we can make some radical changes in sales and look at this idea of specialized coaches. Look at spending more money, uh, training managers versus sellers. And then by the meantime, yeah, people do have to step up individually and say, if you're waiting for the company to do it, it's the wrong strategy you got to take off.

[00:22:55] Luigi Prestinenzi: You know, it's really interesting. You bring that up, Andy, because I was going to raise that with you around that self-directed and I, I'm a very big believer and advocate in that individual contributors, individual sales professionals. Shouldn't white for these types of assistance because ultimately if they don't perform.

They manage is not going to wait to performance management out. Right. So, you know, they have to control their own destiny. And that's where I've bought these books because I never got sales training. It was, Hey, there's a phone. This is, I'm not that old. Right. But this was the old touch pad. There's a phone there.

There's you know, a number, what a numbers, there's a pen, go and dial. Um, it was no training on intonation, um, you know, disc or anything like that. Then I had what we called the silver Fox. He was a, uh, this is his nickname was a silver Fox. Cause he was. Grey head bang his hand on the table, show me a pie.

There was, that was our training. It was, well, we haven't got enough to go out and get more. Um, and he would literally yell and scream at us for not producing. Right, right. Um, but so I realized very early on that the only way I was going to enable myself to be the best version of myself I could be, was go out and find that content that I needed.

Look, and look at my peers. What did they do? What aren't they doing so well, what could I, what techniques could I steal from myself and make my own? So we'd love to know from your perspective, if you're that particular seller or that leader that he's looking for, those skills, what is the very first thing they could probably start so that they can use coaching as a mechanism to.

Improve

[00:24:41] Andy Paul: performance. So meaning what's the first thing you can do to start, start your self improvement

plan.

[00:24:46] Luigi Prestinenzi: Correct. If the business doesn't go, isn't going to pay for it. Um, you know, H what are some steps they can do immediately? Is it listen to some of their own calls? Is it ask for, look for an accountability, buddy?

[00:24:57] Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, I that's, the one I was gonna talk about is first is look for you. Call an accountability, buddy, look for a mentor. If you will. Um, Yeah. I think if you can look for someone that's more experienced than you in the space, you're in, that's the first place. Not as it doesn't have needs to be a manager, but they have to be familiar with what you're going through in my case, my first job years ago, uh, yeah, I latched onto the number one sales person and just made a bunch of calls with them and.

His style, uh, couldn't be more different than mine. And I think that's was one of the things that attracted me to him. Cause I was a little scared by what he was doing and, uh, he just, he was fearless and I, I, I did not have that fearless part of me when I was first prospecting making cold calls. Cause I was out in the field making, knocking on doors, making cold calls on businesses, but he was just fearless, but he, he had such a great.

Way of, of opening an interaction with somebody and being completely and utterly sincere about that. He was here to help. He wasn't here to sell. He was here to help. And, uh, you know, he had grown up in a family owned business. They understood, you know, small mid-sized businesses and entrepreneurs, which were, we're primarily calling on.

And yeah, I just loved watching him go through it. And yeah, I learned so much about what I could do in my own way. Right. That cause we just had completely different personalities. But for me that was more important than, you know, two weeks of training. I had gone to the company that had given. Um, so yeah, so, but for me, I think in terms of a concrete step, I think people should do is find an accountability buddy, or a mentor, somebody that that's going to give them the honest unvarnished feedback that you need.

Yeah. Start committing yourself to spending. 10 minutes a day, reading a book, right? Just 10 minutes. Yeah, just don't Hey, if you make a commitment, I'm going to stop watching TV altogether and just going to read every night, you know, it's not going to work. It's not going to stick, but take 10 minutes. Just start there knowing you'll eventually you'll, you'll do more.

Yeah. When you're in the gym or you just had in the train when I get back to riding trains, uh, yeah, listen to a podcast. Yeah. But just to try to fill that time with, with. Something that's a little bit longer form, and this is, this is, this is a part I stressed to peoples. Yeah. I write posts on LinkedIn that are short and pithy and, and so on.

But the real learning comes from reading something that's, that's more coherent or it's longer, that requires some level of thought. And that's why I think that books are invaluable in that regard because people have to lay out the whole picture. They have to lay out the philosophy. They have to have it make sense.

So I think. Yeah, look at behind you, right? That's that's, that's learning right there. And I was always, for me is when I was entering new fields, new technologies I was selling. Yeah, it was pre-internet all I had was books. Um, but yeah, I'd lean on the books.

[00:28:02] Luigi Prestinenzi: One of the things you mentioned earlier in our conversation, which I really want to kind of, you know, focus on is you used the term a couple of times, reinvent your.

And I really love that because that's a complete growth mindset. And I think there's people that want coaching, but they, and they want to improve. But sometimes the barrier that they have to improve performance is they're approaching it with a fixed mindset. They don't want the feedback that they might not necessarily want to hear from.

I think it's all hard for all of us, right. We all got a bit of an ego and I know sometimes one of my mentors is Tony Hughes or prospecting and he slams me, Andy. Like he gives me some. Yeah. I often get off the coals going, mate. Maybe I can't sell, maybe I need to change my career. Um, but Eastlands me. And then sometimes it's hard for me to accept and I, I get grumpy and I, I cross my arms and I'm like, what are, you know?

Um, but, but then when I reflect, I actually go actually, you know what he said to me, he's spot on. Like, he's absolutely spot on. Um, but so what advice have you got for somebody that. Has that trait that they want coaching, but they might be a bit resistance to that feedback.

[00:29:22] Andy Paul: Yeah. That's a hard one, right?

Because people have to have to be open to learning regardless of what form it comes in and try. Right. We all have egos, uh, Yeah. And there's, I think there's this misconception that somehow newer generations in the workforce are more sensitive about it. And I don't think that's the case at all. I think it's just, people have to be willing to provide feedback.

It had a direct form that's relevant to what the people are doing. It's and unfortunately, a lot times people give them the feedback of their own agendas. And the only agenda you should have when you're coaching someone is how can I help this person become a better version of themselves? Right. So understanding what their needs and their requirements are and keeping the feedback focused on helping them and.

Yeah, it's again, somebody's, closed-minded about it. Yeah. There's not much you can do. Um, and I think as you can spend a lot of time surf tilting against that windmill and I've done in the past, but on the other hand, I've been hugely warded by people who have completely embraced and wanted to transform themselves over time.

And yeah, that's what keeps you coming back doing it. But, um, Yeah, this idea of reinvention, I think is, is a good idea for people to sort of think about, because I've been identified maybe like seven instances during my career where I felt. Substantial reinvention going on. Yeah. And, but for me, I found in a sales career, that was the biggest motivator for me, more so than saying, Hey, I'm going to get paid.

A lot of money is yeah. I get to learn something new and I get to learn something new with really interesting smart people. And so I prioritize those things in my career as is when I looked at the next step or I was being recruited as like. Yeah. Is this, is this different enough from what I was doing?

Yeah. We're on something different and something, a new challenge, uh, you know, my calling on different set of customers. What am I going to learn in this, this environment that I didn't know. And so I wasn't looking at, you know, how can I leverage my past experience into this, you know, sort of the same industry into another company.

Yeah. Some people may do that. I just, that wasn't what I was interested in. And yet for me, by doing that, I think that's what enabled me to succeed. And then the rewards come with that. But the rewards were just an outcome there wasn't sort of the driver. So I'm always just sort of had this thing, right.

It's what am I gonna sell? Who am I gonna learn from?

[00:31:59] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah, but that was a mindset. So the purely had a growth mindset and I'd love to flip these cause we talk about. Th th the lack of investment in leadership to help them coach. And, and on your recent podcast or the one that you, you brought back from three years ago?

I think. Right. And he talks about one of the things that I loved in that particular episode, because this is something I often say to sellers. Um, it's confidence comes from being competent, right? And he talks about that. He's saying when you're competent, you can actually, it shows a level of confidence and it's authentic.

And so that builds trust. Right, right, exactly. Because that's what it's all about. You can be confident, but it's not genuine. And you know that there's no authenticity sitting behind it because there's no substance. And one of the things that I found I'd love to get your perspective on this is sometimes sales managers shy away from coaching because they're not confident.

Because they lack the competence and understanding of how to effectively coach and navigate through those conversations. And because there may be some past experience where they've tried to coach and they've had resistance from their town, so they've gone well, doesn't work. Right. So what advice could you give to, you know, cause we've got a lot of sales leaders that listen to our podcast, right.

Um, you know, what advice could you give to them that are trying to make that, that transformation in their team? Because the reality is the. Six months, even though I believe the fundamentals of selling hasn't changed the environment. In which we're selling in the anxiety in which sellers are operating in has changed.

Right? So sellers are under more pressure managers are under more pressure to deliver. So now they're getting conflicting priorities. So, you know, what could you, what advice could you give them? That's going to help them move that to that point of confidence from being, you know, being competent.

[00:33:50] Andy Paul: Right.

Well, There's two levels that coaching operates on, let's say two main levels. And I think that the default for most sales managers is they want to coach opportunities, right? We're going to go through a pipeline and we'll do deal strategy. So and so forth. Sure. There's a place for that, but that's not really coaching.

Right? Coaching is about developing the individual and you have to have that perspective in mind is I'm going to invest this time. There's a fabulous book, but I think everybody should read, uh, read this book several times called the coaching habits. Yeah. And written by a gentleman named Michael Bungay Stanier.

And. Uh, short, sharp book, uh, extremely well-written and it lays out seven steps to the structure. How you structure a coaching session, basically around seven questions that you ask that. Yeah, sort of interesting is when you actually, when you, when you go through it and read it. My first impression when I finished the book was like the seven questions, the structure about how to interact with your, your, the person you're coaching and the questions you asked to take him through this, this a learning session was like, Oh, that's really a good sales book because it was really, yeah.

These are the questions you want to ask a prospect. Um, it's exact same thing. And so I talked about, he didn't realize he had written a great sales book, but it's also a great sales book, but yeah, read this book and that's the perspective you want to have is, is how do I help my people become self-sufficient problem solvers?

And that's what you're, that's what you're trying to do. Right. As I want. You know, sales is have this argument with people all the time is, you know, when you look at the attributes you want a seller to have, or if you ask a buyer, what's the attributes you want the seller to have when they're dealing with you.

It's very different from the way a lot of companies look to hire people right there. They're not looking for extorts. They're not looking for hunters, they're not looking. And I summarize it, say what a buyer wants is a buyer wants a curious open-minded problem-solver. Well, and so part of what Bungay standard teaches in the book is how do you help your people to become more effective problem solvers and on their own.

And they almost serve take this, this a process you learn in his book and you've got. Take a right into the sales arena and use that as a seller because that's sort of what you're doing with as a seller is, is if you're doing it right, you don't want to give the answers to your prospects. You want to help them find the answers because, you know, I believe that when they start to take ownership of, oh yeah, yeah, this is an idea we want to embrace.

And it's my idea that they know it comes from you and. You've had that influence on them and you're suddenly in a better position with them. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think that's a good, first step is just read this book, put it into practice. It's very simple. Uh, to my mind, the best resource you can find for coaching and I've read tons of books on coaching.

And even though it's not specifically about sales, it is about sales and yeah, it will pay back many times.

[00:37:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: I get that book and put it into the show notes, but India I'm completely aligned with what you said. I love that our role as sales professionals is not to tell. The outcome it's to help them through the journey and help them come to the realization and arrive at a certain decision.

So I absolutely love what you've described there. Well, I

[00:37:34] Andy Paul: think that's the difference. And I think this is where people sort of conflate the meaning of two different words, which is influence and persuasion. And our job is not to persuade our job is to influence and, uh, Yeah, another episode, something we can go through though,

[00:37:54] Luigi Prestinenzi: and I've taken that out.

I said, I don't like the word convince, persuade, um, you know, manipulate and you know, all that shouldn't be my job is, is as a professional is to help you through that buying process is to enable you to make the decision. And whether you trust me or not, it's not, I can't control. But I can control the experience I couldn't create.

So I think we have another.

[00:38:16] Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, and that's what you're talking about though, is, is a matter of perspective. And I think this is so important for people to understand is that I believe that the difference between people who are consistently successful in sales is not that they're more skilled.

It's the perspective they have about what they're trying to accomplish. And so you sort of set is yeah. Speak to a crowd of people and, and sellers at a sales kickoff or something. And I'll ask the question. So what's your job and you know, the answers you people throw up from the audience it's usually around.

Well, our job is to get an order for the products. You know, we're selling our, sell our company's products and I'm like, no, that's not your job. Your job is to, to your point, you just made it it's your job is to help your buyer make a purchase decision. Okay. Now, if that's what you think your job is, the way you're going to approach how you deal with them is completely different than if you think your job is to get an order.

[00:39:11] Luigi Prestinenzi: Absolutely. so, Robert, there's this, I referenced this book last week in my podcast, Andy, and it's, uh, this is marketing by Seth Godin. I love him. And he talks about the quarter inch drill bit. People don't buy the quarter inch drill bit. They buy the quarter inch hole, but they don't buy the hole. They buy the shelf that the hole goes on and they don't buy the shelf.

They buy the declutter there, but they don't buy the declutter. They buy the, the feeling they get when their partner says, you know, well done. Right. Yeah. And so that's what I absolutely just love that particular part of the book. And I think it resonates so much with what you just said that, you know, they're not getting an order.

What is it they're helping? What's the impact? Um, what's the change that you're going to help someone.

[00:39:52] Andy Paul: Well, yeah, well, I mean, when you think about us, how does your, as a woman and Lisa McCloud has written a book called selling with noble purpose and it just released in a second edition and Lisa was just interviewed on the show that, and yeah, it would hurt her research has shown is that, that if you can identify this purpose in your sales, which.

She says, basically is, you know, how have the lives of your customers changed as a result of buying and using your product. Then if that informs the way you're interacting with them, then that's pretty powerful that you have that purpose driving you. And, and so, yeah, and we we've, um, we did an exercise on LinkedIn a couple months ago.

We aside my, my son and I, cause he is my partner in this endeavor and, and, uh, You're in the soil called a five word challenge. And so I asked people on LinkedIn community is tell me what you sell in five words or less meaning what's the value offer. And what's the value of the customer gets from it in five words or less.

And we got all these really interesting answers that came in, but what they really boil down to is that's really your purpose, right? If you can express it that succinctly, um, Includes in that sort of the change, the customer experiences, that's your purpose. And so, um, Yeah, it gets, it gets again, gets back to this idea of perspective.

And, and I think in sales, what we do, people disservice our sellers to the service. Those of us who are writing books and talking and so on as is too often, the default mode is look, you need to transform how you're doing things. And I think the key is that we have to stop talking about transforming is we need to change.

One degree of orientation. You let's just change one degree. Let's make a small change and let's see how that goes. And then maybe we'll do another small change on top of that. And that's why I think people just sort of shifting their perspective a little bit, can make a huge, huge difference in their outcome.

And I think a lot of it's just mindset oriented. It's it's, you know, the growth mindset as we've talked to. Is huge. I think there's also a mindsets having to do with, uh, uh, you know, persuasion versus influence and, um, you know, various decision-making styles that the customers have. As you know, I think that, again, the default mode for a lot of sellers is think, well, I'm trying to help my customer make the best decision.

And the fact is customer doesn't want to make the best decision. They make a good enough decision. And because they don't have the time to make the best decision. And they've got constraints that, you know, they've got a limited amount of time. They have limited amount of access to information, a little bit of understanding of what the future might bring.

So yeah, they'll make a decision that you're a Herbert Simon and Nobel prize when you're talking about satisficing decision, which is, you know, it's just satisfies their requirements and sufficient for the time to achieve the desired outcomes. But that's a mindset thing. And so we've got all these perspective changes that, that have sellers really understood.

It's just start shifting just a little bit here on the way you're seeing the world has a big impact on the outcomes you can achieve.

[00:43:16] Luigi Prestinenzi: Well, I think we've got another two or three episodes that we can do as a result of these Sandy, because this conversation is awesome, but I'm conscious of time, but I just want, I, I think I know the answer to this one, but I try to ask every guest, this question in your opinion, is sales and art or.

[00:43:32] Andy Paul: Oh, both more art than science, but yeah, unfortunately what, so there's many parts of that answer. So, you know, there's what people are oftentimes calling today. The science of selling, which is driven by metrics and KPIs. And I was like, tell people is don't kid yourself. That's just. And it's not science, it's math and conversion rates and so on.

So let's acknowledge that, uh, I think the science is coming in the form of AI and other things that are going to enable sellers, uh, you know, give them some tools they can use in real time and their interactions, you know, so amplify the humanity of the seller themselves. I think that part of science, you know, there's other parts of science.

We talk about the science of, you know, social psychology, behavioral economics. Yeah. That's been a lot of great stuff written, but the fact is a lot of that's pretty controversial these days because, uh, like there's a study just came out of duke university. I said that, yeah. Any behavioral study you read that was based on functional MRIs, which was the huge thing.

Right? Let's put something in MRI machine. We'll get them stimulus. We'll see what parts of the brain activate. Well, basically the scientists conclude that every one of those studies is invalid because the data was misread and misinterpreted. So we just have to,

it's just a useful data point. So if you think, gosh, I got to live my life by this book that tells me that people behave this way in certain situations. I just caution you because yeah. But learn from your experience and, uh, that's where the art comes from and keep learning from your experience. And yeah, if you're like me, you've been in it for four decades, I'm still learning every single day.

That should be your goal.

[00:45:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah. So that's awesome and biggest influence in your career and why?

[00:45:20] Andy Paul: Oh, that's a good question. I probably one, one boss I had, um, I'd been in. Started in sales and I, I had been in serve, uh, marketing and channel sales roles, uh, working for like apple in the early days and some other PC companies and, and made the switch to selling the some enterprise communication stuff.

And I had a boss there. Had faith in me that I could do that. And, uh, you know, was my first ex sinners experienced selling really big deals were going to really big companies. And yeah, if not for him, probably wouldn't have. We've gotten to where I am today. So that's pretty awesome.

[00:46:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: When do y'all, like I said, I've absolutely loved this episode.

I think we've got a lot of, a lot of more stuff we could cover, but I wanna, firstly, um, I want to say thanks mate, for the contribution that you make to our community, because it's helping sellers. Be the best they can be and it's helping sellers find ways to reinvent themselves. So I'm want to say thanks.

And also before we, we will let you go, where can people find more about you and how can they listen to your podcasts? And we'll make sure we put, um, sure.

[00:46:34] Andy Paul: Okay, great. Well, the podcast Sales Enablement with Andy Paul on every podcast platform out there and, uh, apple, Spotify, so on. And if you listen to it and you like it, please go to iTunes, leave us a review.

Uh, the best way to connect with me is, um, LinkedIn. So real Andy Paul, you know, linkedin.com blowout ever real. Andy Paul, um, or just search Andy Paul. There's a few of us there, but I'm the only one with a podcast, I think. And then, yeah, check out, come to ring dna.com and check out what.

[00:47:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: Fantastic. Well again, thanks for everything you do, mate.

And thanks for coming on the Sales IQ Podcast.

[00:47:08] Andy Paul: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

This episode was transcribed digitally, some errors may be present.

[00:00:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: Welcome. This is the Sales IQ Podcast. My name is Luigi Prestinenzi, and I'm on a mission to help salespeople be the best sales professionals they can be. Each week, we'll bring you a different message from thought leaders from around the globe so we can help you master the art of selling.  

That's a quote by Robert Kiyosaki. And this week, we're talking to Andy Paul, about why training and self. We'll help you be the very best sales professional you can be. This episode is brought to you by video. The online video tool for sales professionals. Video makes it easy for sales teams to turn text-based emails, interpersonal video messages, and we'll help.

Engage with your prospects and create an incredible buying experience for them, which will ultimately help you reach your pipeline and revenue goals. So do you search for favor? Get to bgr.com, sign up and start using video in your sales process.

As we move towards 2021, there's only a short period of time to capitalize on what has been for many very challenging 2020. It's really interesting because, or I come from, we've just come out of lockdown, one of the harshest in the world and, you know, for others, other people are going back into lockdown.

And I think we're going to see, you know, it's going to be a bit of a peak and trough, um, for many economies around the. And I think like, well, you know, this is, this is a once in a lifetime event, but to reality years, Selling often have those peaks and troughs and yeah, it might not be a crisis, but it can be very challenging why this week's episode is really important because we speak to Andy Paul and Andy Paul hosts his own podcast, and it's an incredible podcast.

It's had hundreds and hundreds of guests on the podcasts and Andy is very committed to the out of coaching and self development. And why are we going to talk about that this week? Because. The reality is in selling. You never stop learning. And if you get to that point where you go, right. I don't know. I don't need to know anything watch out because there could be a huge dip, a cliff in front of you.

Because every day sales is changing. Now know the philosophy of sales. In my opinion, hasn't changed for many, many years, but the way in which the buyers engage with us has changed. And technology is playing a big part of that. So whether you like it or not learning is a big part of the process. However, you can see learning from two perspectives, from a fixed mindset or a growth.

Yeah, I get the opportunity to talk to high performing sales pros around the world all the time. I love it. And I get so energetic when I speak to them. And one of the most common characteristics that I see is high performance. To learning. It's not like something that they do once a month or something that they do every quarter or part of an annual sales kickoff.

It's part of the operational rhythm. It's part of everything that they do. And they look for learning wherever they can. Why? Because just like a lead athletes, high performing sales pros are committed to finding that extra 1%. And when you think about that opportunity to learn and go, right, what have I learned during this global pandemic?

What have I done differently? That's going to enable me to be the best I can be. That's going to enable me to capitalize on the opportunity that sits in 2021, because in some economies they're bouncing back and they're bouncing back hard. Some are still struggling, both enable opportunity for great sellers.

And this is why this week's episode is absolutely awesome because Andy and I are going to talk. A variety of things, but you know, we really are going to talk about the art of self development, the art of being committed to your craft and being a professional. Remember anyone can work in sale, but you've got to earn the professional parts.

Well, my good friend came McLaughlin says, so when you to think about. Especially, as we say, 2000 and twenties, fast, fast being eroded, and you can either take some of those challenges and really learn from it because the reality is when we are in a point of challenge, when we are in the point of struggle, it's the best opportunity because we're in the area of growth.

It's where we really can sort of. Extra 1% within ourselves. So guys buckle up, get a pen and paper, cause this is going to be awesome. And Andy's got to share some incredible insight with us to help you be the very best you can be.

Welcome to the show.

[00:04:50] Andy Paul: Luigi, thank you for having me. Thank you. So I want to know, have you read all those books behind you?

[00:04:56] Luigi Prestinenzi: Not all of them. They just it's a green screen

[00:05:00] Andy Paul: or it is a green screen.

[00:05:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: They, my books on look, I'm getting through quite a few of them. I've read quite a lot of them. There's a couple of extra ones on eight to get into, but, um, but Andy, I'm very excited to have.

You want to have show mate, because I've spent a lot of time. I've spent a lot of hours on the train on planes. I'm in my car, listening to your podcast. It's been a great podcast. It's been around for a number of years. So I'm really excited. Oh mate. Fantastic. So yeah, I'm pretty pumped to actually, um, have you on the show and talk a bit about your journey and sure.

And, and getting to the, to the topic of coaching. But before we get into today's episode, we'd love to learn. You know, tell us a bit about yourself and how you got into the world of cells sales.

[00:05:46] Andy Paul: Oh, like a lot of people is an accident, right. And I graduated from college and had no idea what to do. And I like said no discernible job skills.

Uh, I studied history in college, so no discernible job skills while I did have, it was an insatiable curiosity and a competitive streak. And so somehow that lent me to, or led me to sales. So, um, yeah, and it, it sort of stuck. I wouldn't, I think after the first month I thought, oh my God, I can't get out of sales fast enough.

And then, um, slowly but surely it started to make sense or at least as they would make sense of it. And here I am over 40 years later still doing it.

[00:06:30] Luigi Prestinenzi: Wow. Well, you've got a pretty awesome story, right? Because the last five years you've been on a path of. Yeah. Putting out some incredible content, um, via your podcasts.

And recently you've had your podcast acquired, which is incredible, right? So

[00:06:46] Andy Paul: unexpected. Yes. For sure.

[00:06:48] Luigi Prestinenzi: You're the Joe Rogan of the sales industry.

[00:06:52] Andy Paul: I don't think I got a hundred million dollars. Um, yeah, we don't play with audiences quite the same size, but we on the podcast, you know, it's funny. I, I was inspired to start the podcast.

I was at a conference and I saw, uh, John Lee Dumas speak and he has this podcast entrepreneur on fire. It's a big podcast business startup podcast in the, in the U S and. Well, that's, that's not a pretty interesting and the idea of yeah. Talking to other people about their journey and what they've learned.

And it really has turned out. As I tell people it's doing the podcast is one of the most selfish things I've ever done because where else could I talk to now? 820 really smart people and continue to learn stuff myself. And about sales. Every time I talk to somebody or trust or leadership or management or coaching, whatever the subject is is I, I get to learn something.

So I've yeah. Yeah. This deep into my career. Uh, yeah, I've just been able to learn so much. It's just been incredible. So that's what keeps me going. Cause I talked to people like yourself and I said, learn something new and, and apply it to what I'm doing. So it's are the theme throughout my career was always sort of reinvention and.

Sold in the tech business for 25 years or starting my own company and always service choosing companies and products and industries that interested me that I had no grounding in at all. And some were extremely technical, like satellite communications. Yeah. I spent 15 years in the satellite communications business selling large complex satellite communication systems around the world.

I was an Austria. Probably over a dozen times, uh, working with Telstra and obsta Optus, um, as customer. So. Yeah, it was just, it was quite, uh, quite an adventure. And, um, yeah, I'll do the sales. I mean, just got to meet all these incredible people and go these incredible places. And so that's a reached a point where I was tired of the travel and about year 2000 and also.

Sorry, I've been gone too much. It was missing like a birthday, one of my kids' birthdays. And so I said, well, yeah, let's, let's change up. So it's real reinvent myself again as a consultant and did that for about 10 years and maybe a little over 10 years. And then, um, ended up moving to New York from Southern California.

And so it's okay now, what am I going to do? And that's where I wrote my first book and started blogging. I'd never blogged or been on social media at all. And, and yeah, so two books, 800 podcasts. I'm a big social media following just an incredible learning experience. Cause I didn't know how to do any of that.

And so, you know, it's been so much fun at a stage in my career. I saw my friends talking about retiring and, um, Energized the next frontier. One of the things I can learn. So it's been fantastic.

[00:10:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: My daddy is an awesome story and you know, I, I, I completely agree with you. I think, you know, when I started this podcast, um, one of the best things about this was I got to get to talk to the people that are.

The content and read their books and put into practice and then take that, you know, bring it to life. And I think you're right, it's such a selfish experience. And then you're able to turn that into some incredible content to help other sellers be the best they can be. So I've loved this journey. Um, so mate, talk to us a little bit about, cause I think one of the things I like about the content that you put out, and I probably think there is still so much area for improvement in this particular space.

Is the coaching space, right?

[00:10:42] Andy Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well, sales are general about coaching. Yes, for sure.

[00:10:47] Luigi Prestinenzi: I think our industry right now, um, more than ever before, right? I think a lot of people are looking at the tactics of selling, but the missing the fundamentals of selling and it's creating a bit of a gap, right? I'm in the market.

We're talking about how to send a great email, cold email, cold call cadences. Tech stacks we're forgetting. Well, actually, there's a pretty important part of that process, which is the soft school component as

[00:11:12] Andy Paul: well. Yeah. I like to say that we were spending way too much time and efforts, uh, focusing on top of the funnel prospecting and way too little effort focusing on the soft skills, the middle of the middle of the funnel, where the selling actually takes place.

Uh, so, and I give people example, you know, we've got all these great conferences, outbound, inbound. Trafficking versions and so on and so forth that are all focused on, Hey, let's generate those, those prospects, but you know, where's the conference on qualification. Where's the conference on discovery.

Where's the conference on needs analysis and that's where the action really takes place. Right? I mean, we, we actually are, I think are proving that we're actually using. With the technology and all that, we have the processes we have. We're actually pretty adept at developing opportunities. Uh, I think where we've lost a beat is we're getting to coaching.

As I say, this is we don't sell very well these days. And so it's like, I think what's happened is we've gotten so SAR flush at the top of the funnel in many SAS businesses, for instance, that, you know, their win rates are only 20% right now, their most qualified opportunities. They're closing a winning 20%.

Well, that's pretty low. We shouldn't, we should be able to do better than that. Um, and so, yeah, I think coaching certainly plays an element of that, where you have to help people develop to become the best version of themselves. And I think that we've, we've gotten away from that a service center. Tenant, but that we should have in sales.

And we started our paying too much fealty to the process instead. And you know, none of the day sales is a human business, you know, it's what happens when I talk with you, that makes the difference. And so, yeah, I believe coaching, I've done sort of a informal survey of people on my show and other people I know in sales and I asked them, I said, okay, other than your own experience, Yeah, what's been the biggest influence or who's been the biggest influence on you in terms of helping you learn how to sell and buy an overwhelming majority.

Everybody says, well, yeah, my coach or a mentor, right. And a manager. Okay. If that's the case, then why aren't we investing substantially more as a profession in helping people become better coaches? Yeah,

[00:13:31] Luigi Prestinenzi: it's interesting. Yeah, because yeah, you cause the data and there's a lot of really good data out there that shows that businesses, you spend more time coaching their win rates higher, you know, they, they, they actually, then the needle moves much more than businesses who don't invest the time in COVID.

[00:13:50] Andy Paul: Yeah, no, absolutely. I, that I've seen a couple of the same reports is that, that the single most effective thing you can do to move the needle on actual sales, individual sales performance is effective coaching. And so I've recently been using this, this question is sort of a stocking horse for people to start the conversation about what we're doing.

And coaching is saying, look, you know, in the U S we spent. $20 billion a year, roughly on sales training of which maybe 5% of that let's say a billion is spent on coaching our teaching managers, how to coach and become good leaders. And so I said, so let me ask you the question is if we, you know, take us as correct those surveys that say the most effective thing you can do to increase some individual performances, effective coaching.

So what if we took this $20 billion and flipped it on its head and said, look, we're going to spend $19 billion. Teaching managers, how to coach and we'll spend a billion on training salespeople. What do you think would happen with sales results?

[00:14:51] Luigi Prestinenzi: Might they get a multiply?

[00:14:53] Andy Paul: Sure. But I think it would for sure.

Cause I think we get. A very small marginal improvement from additional sales training of sellers, the way we're doing it currently. But if we could somehow scale the coaching and, you know, some takes on those $20 billion and for instance, I mean, yeah, just I'm, I'm a, I'm a huge soccer fan. And so, but the, it could be extended to sports teams in general, but professional sports organizations.

Have become very data-driven, they've become very specialized in the coaches they have on their, their staff. It's, I'm a huge deliverable fan and premier league soccer, but you want me to look at the coaching staff and they've got no liberal has got a coach for throwing. Yeah, they've got a coach for, you know, first team players that got up fitness coach.

I got a nutrition coach. They've got, you know, these specialized coaches. Well, why don't we rethink how we are managing sales? Because right now what we do is we say, oh, well, we've got the sales manager. And since they're in this position authority, somehow they must have this knowledge about how to coach and they.

And then yeah, you go high step, hire a sales director, we assume. Oh, they must have even more knowledge about mindset and motivation and performance improvement. And so they don't don't, we can't blame them. They've never been trained on it. So I think what we should be looking at is as one potential solution say, look, why if coaching is so effective and you can get this pretty immediate payback from it in terms of uplift and performance, why don't we have.

Specialized coaches as part of your sales staff, instead of assuming the manager is going to at all.

[00:16:43] Luigi Prestinenzi: It's interesting. You say they've got a couple of things first and foremost, I'm an I SEMA land fan. So I still, you know, I still can't forget the day that we were three nil up against Liverpool in the champions league final and we lost, I can't continue these chats, but anyway, I'm a massive AC fan made football is life.

Right? So talk about that. Another. Right.

[00:17:04] Andy Paul: I was on airplane watching that match by the way,

[00:17:07] Luigi Prestinenzi: bloody Steven Gerrard. Anyway, the, one of the tricks that are one of the things that I find that impacts sales managers is they often get elevated into a management role because they are good at selling. Right. Um, but the transition from selling to leading others is actually, it's, it's a very different role.

And. It's funny because I say it all the time. I was coaching somebody last week. Um, probably in the top 3% or top sort of, sort of three, three sellers, every single. And she started the month off really poorly, um, really poorly she's at the bottom of the leaderboard. And we listened to a couple of calls last week, very quick, call calibration.

She's had a few, you know, aha moments and now she's climbing and she'll probably get back into the top five by the end of the month. Right now that's a direct result. Not because I'm a good coach, but because she's been able to have an environment where she can in a safe environment, listen to something.

You know, have somebody ask questions, which helps her identify? Well, actually, yes, I'm talking too much. I'm not asking open questions. I'm completely ignoring what they're saying and I've, haven't defined the value and I've gone into, you know, solution mode to, um, she's realized that change the structure, bang and the results of change.

Right. Right. And I think this is where the challenge for sales enablement lies is that sales enablement was designed to provide. Assistance, but they're getting pulled to product. And training on product and specifications and, and they missing the core part of what their role has been designed to do, which has helped drive performance through coaching and, and use data to make, make improved choices.

Yeah,

[00:18:52] Andy Paul: absolutely. Well, I think, yeah, there's, there's confusion about the mission of sales enablement, I think. And, uh, yeah, I don't come out of the sales enablement space per se. Um, but. Yeah. I think the definition that we use on, on my program is that sales enablement is anything and everything that will enable a seller to have a knowledge based interaction with a buyer that the buyer acknowledges has value.

And so that's what people should be focusing on. And yeah, I think coaching plays a huge role in that because. Yeah, sales is an apprenticeship, right? We can have all the formal training we want, but people learn through observation. People learn through doing people, learn through doing with feedback and that's, that's all human driven.

And so, yeah, we need to be able to. Hopefully it gets the point where companies realize the value. And I think this is the stumbling block is people will say, oh, well, managers, aren't taking enough time for coaching, but really starts higher up the chain is the demands being put on the manager. Oftentimes don't leave the time available.

Right? I mean, if you're have a choice between satisfying getting this report done for your boss, who is paying your salary versus. Coaching your seller. They tend to default to satisfy in the boss and the boss should needs to be educated to say, look, this is not a good use of this person's time. We can.

First of all, we're gonna be able to automate a lot of these reports coming up with all the technology we have is they really need to focus their efforts on things that are gonna move the needle, as you said before. And so the. Push pull is, is one of the real reasons we've have the crisis, I think in coaching.

And so it's interesting. Just the last couple of weeks, I've interviewed a couple people on my show who have written books. You know, Hey, you just need to stop waiting for the company to provide this level of sport is you really need to become much more self-directed in your coaching. And so that's, this is sort of this movement you're sort of seeing the name nominally a self-directed.

Hmm, which is, yeah, you have to take complete responsibility for your development. Uh, if you want to be coached, then it's more likely you're going to find a peer to do it, then your manager. And, and I said, it's just a trend. That's like, I was talking to the author. I said, well, so you're just really giving companies a complete pass right on this whole thing.

And I think he's just being a realist and saying, we can hope for better coaches, but the way we're currently structured, the way we're currently investing in those companies is yeah. You as an individual really have to, um, take individual responsibility for your learning and actually finding somebody there'll be a mentor coach for you that may often be.

And so, I mean, you've talked about before of, of, uh, you know, like ring DNA that purchase my podcast is great conversational AI system, where you can, uh, you know, coach callers, our coach sellers through, through calls and so on. Yeah. One of the best ways to use that is to have peers listen, to calls of other, other sellers, and to coach them provide notes on the calls and expect to get that in return so that, you know, everybody has a quota, but as a goal, if I make calls, they're going to listen to during the week that aren't their own well, it's not only they're providing benefits to somebody else, but also by listening to other people, they're learning themselves too.

And by having to coach their learning, um, so. Yeah. I mean, I still have hope that we can make some radical changes in sales and look at this idea of specialized coaches. Look at spending more money, uh, training managers versus sellers. And then by the meantime, yeah, people do have to step up individually and say, if you're waiting for the company to do it, it's the wrong strategy you got to take off.

[00:22:55] Luigi Prestinenzi: You know, it's really interesting. You bring that up, Andy, because I was going to raise that with you around that self-directed and I, I'm a very big believer and advocate in that individual contributors, individual sales professionals. Shouldn't white for these types of assistance because ultimately if they don't perform.

They manage is not going to wait to performance management out. Right. So, you know, they have to control their own destiny. And that's where I've bought these books because I never got sales training. It was, Hey, there's a phone. This is, I'm not that old. Right. But this was the old touch pad. There's a phone there.

There's you know, a number, what a numbers, there's a pen, go and dial. Um, it was no training on intonation, um, you know, disc or anything like that. Then I had what we called the silver Fox. He was a, uh, this is his nickname was a silver Fox. Cause he was. Grey head bang his hand on the table, show me a pie.

There was, that was our training. It was, well, we haven't got enough to go out and get more. Um, and he would literally yell and scream at us for not producing. Right, right. Um, but so I realized very early on that the only way I was going to enable myself to be the best version of myself I could be, was go out and find that content that I needed.

Look, and look at my peers. What did they do? What aren't they doing so well, what could I, what techniques could I steal from myself and make my own? So we'd love to know from your perspective, if you're that particular seller or that leader that he's looking for, those skills, what is the very first thing they could probably start so that they can use coaching as a mechanism to.

Improve

[00:24:41] Andy Paul: performance. So meaning what's the first thing you can do to start, start your self improvement

plan.

[00:24:46] Luigi Prestinenzi: Correct. If the business doesn't go, isn't going to pay for it. Um, you know, H what are some steps they can do immediately? Is it listen to some of their own calls? Is it ask for, look for an accountability, buddy?

[00:24:57] Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, I that's, the one I was gonna talk about is first is look for you. Call an accountability, buddy, look for a mentor. If you will. Um, Yeah. I think if you can look for someone that's more experienced than you in the space, you're in, that's the first place. Not as it doesn't have needs to be a manager, but they have to be familiar with what you're going through in my case, my first job years ago, uh, yeah, I latched onto the number one sales person and just made a bunch of calls with them and.

His style, uh, couldn't be more different than mine. And I think that's was one of the things that attracted me to him. Cause I was a little scared by what he was doing and, uh, he just, he was fearless and I, I, I did not have that fearless part of me when I was first prospecting making cold calls. Cause I was out in the field making, knocking on doors, making cold calls on businesses, but he was just fearless, but he, he had such a great.

Way of, of opening an interaction with somebody and being completely and utterly sincere about that. He was here to help. He wasn't here to sell. He was here to help. And, uh, you know, he had grown up in a family owned business. They understood, you know, small mid-sized businesses and entrepreneurs, which were, we're primarily calling on.

And yeah, I just loved watching him go through it. And yeah, I learned so much about what I could do in my own way. Right. That cause we just had completely different personalities. But for me that was more important than, you know, two weeks of training. I had gone to the company that had given. Um, so yeah, so, but for me, I think in terms of a concrete step, I think people should do is find an accountability buddy, or a mentor, somebody that that's going to give them the honest unvarnished feedback that you need.

Yeah. Start committing yourself to spending. 10 minutes a day, reading a book, right? Just 10 minutes. Yeah, just don't Hey, if you make a commitment, I'm going to stop watching TV altogether and just going to read every night, you know, it's not going to work. It's not going to stick, but take 10 minutes. Just start there knowing you'll eventually you'll, you'll do more.

Yeah. When you're in the gym or you just had in the train when I get back to riding trains, uh, yeah, listen to a podcast. Yeah. But just to try to fill that time with, with. Something that's a little bit longer form, and this is, this is, this is a part I stressed to peoples. Yeah. I write posts on LinkedIn that are short and pithy and, and so on.

But the real learning comes from reading something that's, that's more coherent or it's longer, that requires some level of thought. And that's why I think that books are invaluable in that regard because people have to lay out the whole picture. They have to lay out the philosophy. They have to have it make sense.

So I think. Yeah, look at behind you, right? That's that's, that's learning right there. And I was always, for me is when I was entering new fields, new technologies I was selling. Yeah, it was pre-internet all I had was books. Um, but yeah, I'd lean on the books.

[00:28:02] Luigi Prestinenzi: One of the things you mentioned earlier in our conversation, which I really want to kind of, you know, focus on is you used the term a couple of times, reinvent your.

And I really love that because that's a complete growth mindset. And I think there's people that want coaching, but they, and they want to improve. But sometimes the barrier that they have to improve performance is they're approaching it with a fixed mindset. They don't want the feedback that they might not necessarily want to hear from.

I think it's all hard for all of us, right. We all got a bit of an ego and I know sometimes one of my mentors is Tony Hughes or prospecting and he slams me, Andy. Like he gives me some. Yeah. I often get off the coals going, mate. Maybe I can't sell, maybe I need to change my career. Um, but Eastlands me. And then sometimes it's hard for me to accept and I, I get grumpy and I, I cross my arms and I'm like, what are, you know?

Um, but, but then when I reflect, I actually go actually, you know what he said to me, he's spot on. Like, he's absolutely spot on. Um, but so what advice have you got for somebody that. Has that trait that they want coaching, but they might be a bit resistance to that feedback.

[00:29:22] Andy Paul: Yeah. That's a hard one, right?

Because people have to have to be open to learning regardless of what form it comes in and try. Right. We all have egos, uh, Yeah. And there's, I think there's this misconception that somehow newer generations in the workforce are more sensitive about it. And I don't think that's the case at all. I think it's just, people have to be willing to provide feedback.

It had a direct form that's relevant to what the people are doing. It's and unfortunately, a lot times people give them the feedback of their own agendas. And the only agenda you should have when you're coaching someone is how can I help this person become a better version of themselves? Right. So understanding what their needs and their requirements are and keeping the feedback focused on helping them and.

Yeah, it's again, somebody's, closed-minded about it. Yeah. There's not much you can do. Um, and I think as you can spend a lot of time surf tilting against that windmill and I've done in the past, but on the other hand, I've been hugely warded by people who have completely embraced and wanted to transform themselves over time.

And yeah, that's what keeps you coming back doing it. But, um, Yeah, this idea of reinvention, I think is, is a good idea for people to sort of think about, because I've been identified maybe like seven instances during my career where I felt. Substantial reinvention going on. Yeah. And, but for me, I found in a sales career, that was the biggest motivator for me, more so than saying, Hey, I'm going to get paid.

A lot of money is yeah. I get to learn something new and I get to learn something new with really interesting smart people. And so I prioritize those things in my career as is when I looked at the next step or I was being recruited as like. Yeah. Is this, is this different enough from what I was doing?

Yeah. We're on something different and something, a new challenge, uh, you know, my calling on different set of customers. What am I going to learn in this, this environment that I didn't know. And so I wasn't looking at, you know, how can I leverage my past experience into this, you know, sort of the same industry into another company.

Yeah. Some people may do that. I just, that wasn't what I was interested in. And yet for me, by doing that, I think that's what enabled me to succeed. And then the rewards come with that. But the rewards were just an outcome there wasn't sort of the driver. So I'm always just sort of had this thing, right.

It's what am I gonna sell? Who am I gonna learn from?

[00:31:59] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah, but that was a mindset. So the purely had a growth mindset and I'd love to flip these cause we talk about. Th th the lack of investment in leadership to help them coach. And, and on your recent podcast or the one that you, you brought back from three years ago?

I think. Right. And he talks about one of the things that I loved in that particular episode, because this is something I often say to sellers. Um, it's confidence comes from being competent, right? And he talks about that. He's saying when you're competent, you can actually, it shows a level of confidence and it's authentic.

And so that builds trust. Right, right, exactly. Because that's what it's all about. You can be confident, but it's not genuine. And you know that there's no authenticity sitting behind it because there's no substance. And one of the things that I found I'd love to get your perspective on this is sometimes sales managers shy away from coaching because they're not confident.

Because they lack the competence and understanding of how to effectively coach and navigate through those conversations. And because there may be some past experience where they've tried to coach and they've had resistance from their town, so they've gone well, doesn't work. Right. So what advice could you give to, you know, cause we've got a lot of sales leaders that listen to our podcast, right.

Um, you know, what advice could you give to them that are trying to make that, that transformation in their team? Because the reality is the. Six months, even though I believe the fundamentals of selling hasn't changed the environment. In which we're selling in the anxiety in which sellers are operating in has changed.

Right? So sellers are under more pressure managers are under more pressure to deliver. So now they're getting conflicting priorities. So, you know, what could you, what advice could you give them? That's going to help them move that to that point of confidence from being, you know, being competent.

[00:33:50] Andy Paul: Right.

Well, There's two levels that coaching operates on, let's say two main levels. And I think that the default for most sales managers is they want to coach opportunities, right? We're going to go through a pipeline and we'll do deal strategy. So and so forth. Sure. There's a place for that, but that's not really coaching.

Right? Coaching is about developing the individual and you have to have that perspective in mind is I'm going to invest this time. There's a fabulous book, but I think everybody should read, uh, read this book several times called the coaching habits. Yeah. And written by a gentleman named Michael Bungay Stanier.

And. Uh, short, sharp book, uh, extremely well-written and it lays out seven steps to the structure. How you structure a coaching session, basically around seven questions that you ask that. Yeah, sort of interesting is when you actually, when you, when you go through it and read it. My first impression when I finished the book was like the seven questions, the structure about how to interact with your, your, the person you're coaching and the questions you asked to take him through this, this a learning session was like, Oh, that's really a good sales book because it was really, yeah.

These are the questions you want to ask a prospect. Um, it's exact same thing. And so I talked about, he didn't realize he had written a great sales book, but it's also a great sales book, but yeah, read this book and that's the perspective you want to have is, is how do I help my people become self-sufficient problem solvers?

And that's what you're, that's what you're trying to do. Right. As I want. You know, sales is have this argument with people all the time is, you know, when you look at the attributes you want a seller to have, or if you ask a buyer, what's the attributes you want the seller to have when they're dealing with you.

It's very different from the way a lot of companies look to hire people right there. They're not looking for extorts. They're not looking for hunters, they're not looking. And I summarize it, say what a buyer wants is a buyer wants a curious open-minded problem-solver. Well, and so part of what Bungay standard teaches in the book is how do you help your people to become more effective problem solvers and on their own.

And they almost serve take this, this a process you learn in his book and you've got. Take a right into the sales arena and use that as a seller because that's sort of what you're doing with as a seller is, is if you're doing it right, you don't want to give the answers to your prospects. You want to help them find the answers because, you know, I believe that when they start to take ownership of, oh yeah, yeah, this is an idea we want to embrace.

And it's my idea that they know it comes from you and. You've had that influence on them and you're suddenly in a better position with them. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think that's a good, first step is just read this book, put it into practice. It's very simple. Uh, to my mind, the best resource you can find for coaching and I've read tons of books on coaching.

And even though it's not specifically about sales, it is about sales and yeah, it will pay back many times.

[00:37:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: I get that book and put it into the show notes, but India I'm completely aligned with what you said. I love that our role as sales professionals is not to tell. The outcome it's to help them through the journey and help them come to the realization and arrive at a certain decision.

So I absolutely love what you've described there. Well, I

[00:37:34] Andy Paul: think that's the difference. And I think this is where people sort of conflate the meaning of two different words, which is influence and persuasion. And our job is not to persuade our job is to influence and, uh, Yeah, another episode, something we can go through though,

[00:37:54] Luigi Prestinenzi: and I've taken that out.

I said, I don't like the word convince, persuade, um, you know, manipulate and you know, all that shouldn't be my job is, is as a professional is to help you through that buying process is to enable you to make the decision. And whether you trust me or not, it's not, I can't control. But I can control the experience I couldn't create.

So I think we have another.

[00:38:16] Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, and that's what you're talking about though, is, is a matter of perspective. And I think this is so important for people to understand is that I believe that the difference between people who are consistently successful in sales is not that they're more skilled.

It's the perspective they have about what they're trying to accomplish. And so you sort of set is yeah. Speak to a crowd of people and, and sellers at a sales kickoff or something. And I'll ask the question. So what's your job and you know, the answers you people throw up from the audience it's usually around.

Well, our job is to get an order for the products. You know, we're selling our, sell our company's products and I'm like, no, that's not your job. Your job is to, to your point, you just made it it's your job is to help your buyer make a purchase decision. Okay. Now, if that's what you think your job is, the way you're going to approach how you deal with them is completely different than if you think your job is to get an order.

[00:39:11] Luigi Prestinenzi: Absolutely. so, Robert, there's this, I referenced this book last week in my podcast, Andy, and it's, uh, this is marketing by Seth Godin. I love him. And he talks about the quarter inch drill bit. People don't buy the quarter inch drill bit. They buy the quarter inch hole, but they don't buy the hole. They buy the shelf that the hole goes on and they don't buy the shelf.

They buy the declutter there, but they don't buy the declutter. They buy the, the feeling they get when their partner says, you know, well done. Right. Yeah. And so that's what I absolutely just love that particular part of the book. And I think it resonates so much with what you just said that, you know, they're not getting an order.

What is it they're helping? What's the impact? Um, what's the change that you're going to help someone.

[00:39:52] Andy Paul: Well, yeah, well, I mean, when you think about us, how does your, as a woman and Lisa McCloud has written a book called selling with noble purpose and it just released in a second edition and Lisa was just interviewed on the show that, and yeah, it would hurt her research has shown is that, that if you can identify this purpose in your sales, which.

She says, basically is, you know, how have the lives of your customers changed as a result of buying and using your product. Then if that informs the way you're interacting with them, then that's pretty powerful that you have that purpose driving you. And, and so, yeah, and we we've, um, we did an exercise on LinkedIn a couple months ago.

We aside my, my son and I, cause he is my partner in this endeavor and, and, uh, You're in the soil called a five word challenge. And so I asked people on LinkedIn community is tell me what you sell in five words or less meaning what's the value offer. And what's the value of the customer gets from it in five words or less.

And we got all these really interesting answers that came in, but what they really boil down to is that's really your purpose, right? If you can express it that succinctly, um, Includes in that sort of the change, the customer experiences, that's your purpose. And so, um, Yeah, it gets, it gets again, gets back to this idea of perspective.

And, and I think in sales, what we do, people disservice our sellers to the service. Those of us who are writing books and talking and so on as is too often, the default mode is look, you need to transform how you're doing things. And I think the key is that we have to stop talking about transforming is we need to change.

One degree of orientation. You let's just change one degree. Let's make a small change and let's see how that goes. And then maybe we'll do another small change on top of that. And that's why I think people just sort of shifting their perspective a little bit, can make a huge, huge difference in their outcome.

And I think a lot of it's just mindset oriented. It's it's, you know, the growth mindset as we've talked to. Is huge. I think there's also a mindsets having to do with, uh, uh, you know, persuasion versus influence and, um, you know, various decision-making styles that the customers have. As you know, I think that, again, the default mode for a lot of sellers is think, well, I'm trying to help my customer make the best decision.

And the fact is customer doesn't want to make the best decision. They make a good enough decision. And because they don't have the time to make the best decision. And they've got constraints that, you know, they've got a limited amount of time. They have limited amount of access to information, a little bit of understanding of what the future might bring.

So yeah, they'll make a decision that you're a Herbert Simon and Nobel prize when you're talking about satisficing decision, which is, you know, it's just satisfies their requirements and sufficient for the time to achieve the desired outcomes. But that's a mindset thing. And so we've got all these perspective changes that, that have sellers really understood.

It's just start shifting just a little bit here on the way you're seeing the world has a big impact on the outcomes you can achieve.

[00:43:16] Luigi Prestinenzi: Well, I think we've got another two or three episodes that we can do as a result of these Sandy, because this conversation is awesome, but I'm conscious of time, but I just want, I, I think I know the answer to this one, but I try to ask every guest, this question in your opinion, is sales and art or.

[00:43:32] Andy Paul: Oh, both more art than science, but yeah, unfortunately what, so there's many parts of that answer. So, you know, there's what people are oftentimes calling today. The science of selling, which is driven by metrics and KPIs. And I was like, tell people is don't kid yourself. That's just. And it's not science, it's math and conversion rates and so on.

So let's acknowledge that, uh, I think the science is coming in the form of AI and other things that are going to enable sellers, uh, you know, give them some tools they can use in real time and their interactions, you know, so amplify the humanity of the seller themselves. I think that part of science, you know, there's other parts of science.

We talk about the science of, you know, social psychology, behavioral economics. Yeah. That's been a lot of great stuff written, but the fact is a lot of that's pretty controversial these days because, uh, like there's a study just came out of duke university. I said that, yeah. Any behavioral study you read that was based on functional MRIs, which was the huge thing.

Right? Let's put something in MRI machine. We'll get them stimulus. We'll see what parts of the brain activate. Well, basically the scientists conclude that every one of those studies is invalid because the data was misread and misinterpreted. So we just have to,

it's just a useful data point. So if you think, gosh, I got to live my life by this book that tells me that people behave this way in certain situations. I just caution you because yeah. But learn from your experience and, uh, that's where the art comes from and keep learning from your experience. And yeah, if you're like me, you've been in it for four decades, I'm still learning every single day.

That should be your goal.

[00:45:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah. So that's awesome and biggest influence in your career and why?

[00:45:20] Andy Paul: Oh, that's a good question. I probably one, one boss I had, um, I'd been in. Started in sales and I, I had been in serve, uh, marketing and channel sales roles, uh, working for like apple in the early days and some other PC companies and, and made the switch to selling the some enterprise communication stuff.

And I had a boss there. Had faith in me that I could do that. And, uh, you know, was my first ex sinners experienced selling really big deals were going to really big companies. And yeah, if not for him, probably wouldn't have. We've gotten to where I am today. So that's pretty awesome.

[00:46:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: When do y'all, like I said, I've absolutely loved this episode.

I think we've got a lot of, a lot of more stuff we could cover, but I wanna, firstly, um, I want to say thanks mate, for the contribution that you make to our community, because it's helping sellers. Be the best they can be and it's helping sellers find ways to reinvent themselves. So I'm want to say thanks.

And also before we, we will let you go, where can people find more about you and how can they listen to your podcasts? And we'll make sure we put, um, sure.

[00:46:34] Andy Paul: Okay, great. Well, the podcast Sales Enablement with Andy Paul on every podcast platform out there and, uh, apple, Spotify, so on. And if you listen to it and you like it, please go to iTunes, leave us a review.

Uh, the best way to connect with me is, um, LinkedIn. So real Andy Paul, you know, linkedin.com blowout ever real. Andy Paul, um, or just search Andy Paul. There's a few of us there, but I'm the only one with a podcast, I think. And then, yeah, check out, come to ring dna.com and check out what.

[00:47:04] Luigi Prestinenzi: Fantastic. Well again, thanks for everything you do, mate.

And thanks for coming on the Sales IQ Podcast.

[00:47:08] Andy Paul: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

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This episode was transcribed digitally, some errors may be present.