INSIDE Inside Sales

Don't Stop Outreachin'

August 1, 2022

INSIDE Inside Sales

Tune in to INSIDE Inside Sales with Darryl Praill for actionable strategies and tactics from top sales experts to increase your sales development success. Darryl has unscripted conversations with the leading sales experts, from veteran sales pros to the newest rising stars. If you’re looking for lively debate, spirited conversations, and proven sales know-how, you’ve come to the right podcast.

You're amazing, your product is amazing, and you deeply understand your customers' challenges. But when you don't get in front of potential buyers to show them that, how many do you think slide right past your pipeline?

In this episode, Darryl is joined by Thibaut Souyris, CEO & Founder at SalesLabs. They break down why you need to go all-in on messaging, exactly how to find your sweet spot (step by step),  why we don't do this when it seems so straightforward, and how a closed mind will freeze your development.


Find Thibaut on LinkedIn, on Twitter, or at the Sales Labs website. His podcast is called The B2B Sales Podcast.

Connect with Darryl on LinkedIn.


Are you in sales, but you're not using a sales engagement tool? Then you're probably losing out on revenue because you are not engaging with prospects at the right time, with the right cadence, and with enough persistency. You need VanillaSoft.

INSIDE Inside Sales is now a member of the Sales IQ Network. We help sales pros to self-generate pipeline to smash their sales targets. Find out more by checking out our Create Pipeline Course.

Darryl Praill
Host @ INSIDE Inside Sales Podcast + CMO @ AgoraPulse
Thibaut Souyris
CEO & Founder @ SalesLabs

[00:00:00] Darryl Praill: My name is Darryl Praill. I'm your host and you, my friend, well, you and I we're gonna go on a journey every single week, talking to the industry's most accomplished sales legends, as they share with us, their tips, their tricks, their techniques, and their tactics to becomes sales rockstars. You simply need to do what they're doing and you will achieve similar nirvana. If you like to laugh, you like to be entertained, if you'd like to go off on tangents and tell stories, you're going to love what you're going to hear next. Sit back, relax, it's going to get real.

Good day, everybody. That sounds a little better. I don't know. You ever get on a phone call folks, get on a phone call. And the first thing that happens is your voice cracks. And you sound like you're 12 years old. Again, going through puberty. That's me. I'm going through puberty in my early fifties. What can I say?

Maybe I'm aging backwards. It's good to see everybody again. How you've been keeping my wife asked me a question this morning. It was funny. She asked me the question that I think a lot of men don't like being asked, but maybe I'm wrong. I think a lot of women love it, but maybe I'm wrong here. You tell me the question she asked me, was this, how are you liking your job Darryl?

Like, I know you're doing it and I know you talk about it and you seem like you're, you know, you're making good progress, but I haven't really asked you. You've been there a few months. Now, how you liking your. How you liking your job. And I'm like, ah, I hate this question because you know, no one job is perfect.

No one job is perfect. And I told her, by the way, I said, I'm, I'm really liking it. But I said, it's lots of little victories. And I said, ask me again in six months, when all those little victories add up to big victories, sales has come the same way. You're gonna put in lots of little. Victories little wins before you can finally say, oh my gosh, I've got it figured out.

I've got a sequence. I've got messaging. I've got technique. I've got time blocking. I know my core solution sufficiently. I know my ICP. I know my personas. I'm there. All those little victories have aggregated and accumulated and now I'm having. I'm kicking ass and I'm, I'm just enjoying my job. But before then, it's always hard.

It's always hard. So that's the first part of the story I want to share with you. And, and the first part is gonna completely be at odds with the second part, but then I'll bring them all together. So indulge me if you will. The second part of the story was. Minutes before she had sat down beside me, as I was having my morning coffee to ask me that question and pretend that we were husband and wife, and we still loved each other after 30 plus years of marriage.

And we still talk, I was reading the news. I'm a news junkie. I love reading news. Give me a coffee in the morning. Give me my favorite news feeds. Best way to wake up. And I was reading this interesting side story. I don't even know where the hell I saw it on. Anyway, it was the whole story of why do men generally have no friends?

That's the gist of it? Why do men have no friends? Women have friends. Right. And we used to joke that I made friends when my wife would schedule a play date for me with her girlfriend's husbands. Who, of course, I didn't know them. And and, and there's a lot of truth in that men often don't have, you know, one or more best friends, you know, we tend, we tend to be alone more in our older age.

It's just a societal thing. It's a cultural thing, color what you will. So why does this matter? With the first part, how do these come together? Let me connect the dots for you. One of the reasons men don't have friends, according to this new book, that was, that was being reviewed that I was reading on was cuz we don't actually make a priority of doing outreach.

So I may see a fellow whom I know and I mean, and I see them. Hey John, how you doing? It's been a long time brother. How's the family. How's the job. That's great. How's that new boat you like it? Awesome. Good stuff. Okay. Hey, what about the latest sports team scores? Isn't that something cool. And then we leave and I never ever talk to John again.

I never talk to him. I never, until three years later, when I run into him again at the local hardware store whereas women are constantly doing outreach. which brings me back to my first part of my story. How do I like my job? My job is going well because I'm intentionally doing outreach to get to know all the key stakeholders to get to know all the key people.

And what you see here is these two disparate stories always result in a positive outcome when we are proactively doing outreach. But if we are not proactively doing outreach, then it's a negative outcome. And that's how I'm segueing back into sales. For sales to work, you need to have an outreach system.

You need to know how to do it, to connect with your audience, to connect with your internal experts on your solution. Offering. So that you can be successful and represent the benefits of your offering, and you can compel them to connect with you.

[00:05:50] Sponsor: Are you in sales, but you're not using a sales engagement tool? Then you're probably losing out on revenue because you are not engaging with prospects at the right time, with the right cadence, and with enough persistency. You need VanillaSoft. Go to

[00:06:05] Darryl Praill: Yet we suck at doing outreach. So who's the guy to talk to on how to do outreach and that everybody is Thibaut Souyris. Now Thibaut is the CEO and founder of SalesLabs. You, if you don't know that name, I don't know if you've been hiding under a rock, but check it out.

You may know him as the host of the B2B Sales Podcast. So that's another killer platform you should listen to because he's gonna teach you a whole bunch of really, really smart stuff. But one of the things that LIBO is really good at is training and coaching tech sales teams to start more conversations.

En close, bigger deals. Fasters and he does that with his, what he calls his new outreach system. And what I love about his stats, his latest and greatest stats, or he claims a 38% reply rate and a 27% meeting rate. Now I don't know about you, but. That sounds compelling to me. So I'm hoping that Thibaut can teach me something today about outreach as it applies to sales.

And then what I think I should do is apply that same technique so I can have more friends. So I'm not alone when I get older. So with that, I'll said, Thibaut welcome to the show, my friend.

[00:07:18] Thibault Souyris: Thanks for having there. That was a great story. And eye opening, cuz I can tell you I'm good at outreach professionally, but I got two.

And it's been like a year, didn't see them. And it's so hard because you know, I mean, I'm reaching out all day long. But when I want to go and talk to my friends, I'm just like, ah, I'm tired of doing it. I don't have my CRM. I don't have anything. So it's hard to build these relationships. So I'm 31, but I'm already kind of lo not lonely, but I actually like that.

And my wife, as you said, like, she's just always reaching out to people it's just like in her nature. So that was a really a really good.

[00:07:55] Darryl Praill: It's it's so true. Right. And I'm the same way. My wife, she . So when, when I finish my day, she looks at me, of course now, you know, we've been a part all day cuz you know, I'm in my office.

I do a lot of production work like, like this podcast and and I talk to a lot of people cause it's all outreach. So when I get, when I'm done and I sit down, she looks at me, she goes, goes, you're, you're tired of peeing, aren't you? And I'm like, yes, I don't want to talk to any people anywhere I am done.

And she goes, does that include me? And I'm like, honey, I love you, but can I have like half an hour to just not talk to anything and do nothing? So she's gotten much better over the years to understand how to read be. But it's, it's hard. Outreach is hard, it's exhausting and, and it's even more exhausting.

When we go through the process of outreach and it's not successful, it can suck the life out of us. It can make us second guess ourselves. We can feel dejected and rejected. That may cause us to evaluate a career path. Maybe we thinking that we are failures, it could affect our mental health so much simply because we're just not doing outreach optimally.

So my friend today, you are gonna teach us how to do outreach. And before I get much further, I do want to tell everybody. But if you wanna learn more about people, he's on LinkedIn, of course he, you know will provide it in the show notes. He, you can also find him on Twitter, so there, so that's awesome.

But the easiest way, honestly, if you don't wanna go to LinkedIn, Or you're not sure how to spell his name and we'll spell it for you, but he's got a wonderfully exotic spelling name, probably, you know, it's probably fine for him, but for us, Anglophones are like this European name. I don't know. I don't know how to there's extra vowels in there.

Sales labs, sales All right. So check it out. And I love one of the things, the marketer in. Loves his website, cuz one of the things he says is my students are working at and he's like Shopify, Hootsuite, HubSpot charge be, you know, the list goes on. So he's got a great story. He understands messaging Fibo where do we start?

When it comes to outreach, what do we need? What do we doing wrong? Where do we start? You've been working on a system. What can you share with us? I don't know where to start. I'll let you just go wherever you wanna go. Sure.

[00:10:13] Thibault Souyris: So if you want, we can narrow down a bit on messaging. So sounds good. What, what I found is is that cold outreach is, is widely misunderstood by most people.

And it's crazy cuz you know, every day I train people on that for me, it's like, I always get the impression when I'm doing training that I'm telling people don't forget to breathe. Otherwise, you won't actually, you know, you won't survive, you know, just make sure you actually breathe air. So you keep going.

And it just sounds so natural to me, but it's not to most people because they're not every day thinking about it and everything. And one big problem I found with call messaging is that people just really don't know about the goals, the metrics, like what matters for the people they're reaching out to.

And so there's, you know, tons of different things that are really important, but the first one is nailing your ideal customer profile, meaning. Understanding, what type of companies you wanna reach out to and who are the individuals you wanna reach out to inside of these companies? And so that's the first step that people often don't really understand.

And what I've found is once they get it, They just go and then they start pitching or they assume stuff, but they don't really have a process to understand what are these people caring about? And if you let me, I can tell you like really quickly, what is the process that I think works?

[00:11:26] Darryl Praill: Do it you're if you, you, I mean, 38% reply rate, 27% meeting rate. I think we want to hear the process.

[00:11:32] Thibault Souyris: Yeah. So process is really simple once, you know, for example, that you want to talk to a VP of sales of a sales company that is based, I don't know, in the us and as a 20 plus sales reps, you could say the idea is that you wanna understand, you know, what is this VP of sales caring about?

So, What is the metric that, you know, the one metric that matters, we call that, that they really care about. And often, you know, when you are head of sales or VP of sales, what you matter, you know, it's just like the sales you're doing. And so once it's done the metric, what is the goal you have, which is like, you have to exceed the goal, meet the goal.

You have to reduce, you know, if you're a CFO, you need all these kind of things. And once you have an idea of the metric and the goal, you need to understand what are the initiative. To reach this goal. So if you are a VP of sales, you will typically work on, maybe hiring more people, training them, to make sure that you get them to actually reach targets or sell more.

You're gonna hire work maybe on the pricing, on different things. And once you have an idea of what are the, these initiatives, you can start thinking about what are the typical problems. So hiring people, for example, there's tons of different problems that are related to that. And if you are selling a solution that solved this problem, that's what you can actually attack with when in your outreach.

And once this is done, we have a problem. The very big problem we have. I mean, the problem with problem is that they're too generic. You know, you say, oh, you having issues reaching your targets. So what I love to do is to act like a doctor and find what are the symptoms. So if you are trying to reach your targets and the problem you have is You know, you don't have a key account executive team.

You know, typically what you're gonna have is long sales cycles. You know, over, over 12 months, you're gonna have what we call the U-shaped pipeline. Lot of opportunities in stage one, loading stage five, nothing in between. And then you're forecasting sucks. And then you're gonna have all these things that are extremely precise that are symptoms that you're gonna be able to use in your messaging.

So people, when they read that, they're like, oh, this person gets what I'm going. And when you go into this level from saying, okay, I sell this to actually, this is the problem. This is the symptom you're gonna get. You're gonna be able to actually catch the attention of your prospect and get a lot more replies.

[00:13:39] Darryl Praill: All right. So I was typing the command, man. Let me see if I can recap what you just said here, correct me if I got it wrong. All right. So you said you know, step one, you have to name and understand your ideal customer profile. Mm-hmm . So we grouped that as being both the market. Maybe high tech companies SaaS in the us as well as your, a marketer was say persona, which is like the VP of sales.

Yeah. So from that, the, he said the following, I think six things and I love, I love the progression and that's the word I want to emphasize here. If you didn't catch it, there was a natural progression. So we'll progress. Here we go. What is the one metric that matters to your target? Persona? Head of sales?

What is the goal related to that metric? What is the initiative required to achieve that goal? What are the problems related to that initiative? And then you talked about the problem with problems is that they're too generic. So you have to act like a doctor to uncover the specific symptoms, and then you use the symptoms in your messaging.

How'd I do.

[00:14:42] Thibault Souyris: Perfect. That was great.

[00:14:44] Darryl Praill: Yes. Okay. So now. We've talked about this before. So here's my question for, for Thibault. You know, this is elements of this are not necessarily new. We know we've talked over and over again about understanding your ideal customer profile. We've talked about understanding your target persona.

We've talked about doing qualification and or discovery, which really means not just asking one question, but drilling down. Why, why, why? Because you're trying to get to the root cause the symptoms we've talked about this in this show over and over again. I know you have in your show as well. Here we are saying, this is what you need to do for the system to work.

So I guess I have a philosophical question for you. This system seems so solid, but it seems like we should already be doing this. Why are we not already doing this?

[00:15:36] Thibault Souyris: Great question. Very philosophical question. So I think we're not doing this because it it's complicated. It's, it's actually challenging work to do that.

You know, you have to put yourself in the shoes. Of someone else. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I personally love being with myself, thinking about my thoughts about me thinking about how I feel and everything. I just got a kid. So now I'm starting to think about my kid and everything, but I just don't care about the rest of the world.

Like, you know, we all are typically. And so putting yourself in the shoes of other people is just really tough exercise. And what I found is that. We know the idea, you know, getting that clear ICP, find their problems, but there's no kind of tactical framework to understand how to do that. And so if you look if you're an SDR and account executive and you have to do some outreach and you go to your company, they will tell you about the company.

They'll tell about the industry, maybe a bit, the problems they're solving, but most people don't even know about that. And so that that's, I think the main reason. One thing. I know you're a marketer, so maybe you're gonna hate, hate me for that. But if you look at any website from any kind of SA steak or whatever, you never understand what they're doing, or you never understand, like, what is the problem they're solving?

You're a thousand. Their, you know, it's like we do more of this. We. You know, like we make the world a better place, but how do you do it? And, and what's the problem you're solving. So skip Miller, my partner and mentor always talks about that, which is the away language. Well, instead of talking about the positives, we talk about you know, like, you know, the negatives and the problem avoidance.

And so that's the thing is the, the mindset we have is not really about understanding problems and leading with that. But when you're in sales, you're just hunting for problems constantly.

[00:17:12] Darryl Praill: So then let's walk through, so this is the framework and, and. Ashley, what I was gonna ask you is, you know, what's the best way.

Can I do this on my own? Should I partner with someone like yourself? Shouldn't my sales leadership. Give me this information or my sales enablement team. If I have one on staff, give me all these wonderful answers. Do I have to figure this out myself? That was I, so I have lots of questions for you on that front.

Yeah, so. Start anywhere. I just threw like three different questions at you. Do I need to figure this out on my own? Or will my sales leadership give this to me? Or my sales enablement team would give this to me and if they are giving it to me, should I assume they're right. Like, like what, like where do I get this answers?

That's the question? How do I implement this framework set another way?

[00:17:58] Thibault Souyris: Yeah. Do we have a lot of people listening to this show?

[00:18:01] Darryl Praill: We do, we do have a lot of people. We're, we're almost at episode number 200. And yeah, we have we're, we're, we're pretty happy with our, with our craft.

[00:18:09] Thibault Souyris: I'm asking, cuz I'm about to say something that a lot of people may not like, but I don't, this is the show.

[00:18:13] Darryl Praill: Do it brother. Bring it.

[00:18:16] Thibault Souyris: I have a good friend who's in sales. And he told me about this thing called deal desk, where you go. And when you have a deal, you have to ask people to go and basically allow you to send an offer. And for me, I'm like, I don't know, what's, you know what good went wrong to go in this direction.

But you know, I can understand that in certain companies, you wanna make sure you're not selling this, that I'm not working, but I find that it's one of these functions that. You know, like just like a huge bottleneck to actually selling. And what I found is in most companies, sales enablement is exactly the same.

It's a huge bottleneck to training cuz people in sales enablement are really proud of their onboarding plan, what they've done and here and there. And they're just really close to actually getting anything outside, anything from the outside because they believe they know everything. And so the problem with that is that when you're doing sales enablement, you have to do onboarding training for SDR training for LinkedIn training for tons of different things.

And there are people who have a niche who know a lot about this niche and don't know about anything else for me. If you ask me tips on cold calling, I I've I'm zero I'm. I just don't know how to cold. I know one specific thing, but all the rest I don't. So I'm really happy to, you know, talk about this.

And so if you really rely on your leadership enablement and all these things, Typically having the perfect match. So they will actually be open to that and have the money will be quite challenging. So some companies do, I have companies I've been working with that are really good at training their team, really open about other methodologies.

But in most cases it's pretty challenging and they will give you like a very kind of generic training on their product, you know, why it's cool and, and all this, but they will not go into this flow. We did. What is the problem? What are the goals and metrics and all these things. So I would say do it yourself, if you can.

And you know, that's why I've done the system. Like that's why I've done an online course, so people can do it themselves at a reasonable price.

[00:20:06] Darryl Praill: Okay. So there's so much to unpack here. I see, this is the, this is what I love about the show folks. And when I talk to all my guests, like, you know, Thibaut and I were talking before we started recording and I, I said, I said this to every single one.

I said, it's unscripted the conversa. We can go off on tangents. I'm about to go off on a tangent. I love what he just said about sales and Edelman. He is so right. And I've built sales enablement teams. He's still right. Even though we know it now, this is when I built my teams. This is how I looked at sales enablement.

And this is a good conversation for sales reps to understand. You just heard what Fibo said about his experience with most sales enablement teams. When I built my team, my most recent team, when I was the chief revenue officer at vanilla soft was, I said, I needed a good onboard. Process that, you know, we took it from like two days to a month that tells you something cuz two days was on enough.

So mm-hmm, that's the first part, right? And there's a lot of content and training and certifications and quality control onboarding is really, really important. And then I use them quite often in partnership with the re op team to make sure that the reps are following the right processes. You know, this is how you update the CRM and this is the flow, and this is how you do forecasting.

And what do you mean you've not up in revised all your, you know target closed dates because we have to have an executive meeting shortly and we ought to make sure that the weighted forecast is representative of what's reality. Et cetera. A lot of the sales enable were like, this is how you use the tool, right?

This is how you use gong or chorus, et cetera. This is how you use Manila. So, or outreach or sales loft, et cetera. But they rarely had the skills that teach them to people's point. This is how you do a code call. Or this is how you, you know, do a discovery session. And so when I built my team, I factor into my budget, a recurring roster of X of experts that I had on retainer that would come in on a regular scheduled cadence to physically talk to the teams about specific skills.

Right. So we had the LinkedIn social selling expert. We had the cold calling expert, et cetera. And they would come in and do periodic updates, maybe typically once a month, cuz I, you don't wanna overwhelm the reps with too much training. So, you know, maybe one from the reps point of view, maybe training once a week, but I might have had four experts on four different skills and they would once a month do a refresher course or here's something new or what have you, cuz those are sales skills.

Those are sales skills now. So if you're wondering if you're expecting sales and name, do this to. They're a resource. That's all I'm saying. People said it best. He said, it's up to you to figure it out. And that's one of the reasons he offers a course and he's got his capabilities and his services. So let's talk about that.

Thibaut, let's talk about the course you offer. And I wanna be clear folks. I'm not doing this to plug his course, cuz if you're a longtime listener of the show, you've heard me say over and over and over again that you need to invest. In your own skills development, if you're expecting your employer to do it, and you're not investing, cuz you're too damn cheap, then you will not be successful.

Now, if your employer does reimburse you or bringing this training, that's a bonus, but just like a photographer has to buy his own camera. And a carpenter has to buy his own tools. You need to buy your own knowledge, your own best practices, your own tools for you to be successful. You need to accept that a part of your compensation is gonna go reinvest it back into yourself.

So I love when I get proven systems and frameworks in courses that will help me achieve my goal. 10 times faster because they've already gone through the mistakes and they've figured it out. And they said, just follow these steps and we will hold your hand and we will get you there as opposed to you being a cheap sob and taking a year and then missing out on commission.

And then what have you, so talk to me about your course. How does it work? How does a rep know if they're, if your course is right for them? Why your course versus somebody else's course. So what's your unique selling proposition? How's that? Hey mm-hmm okay, so go for.

[00:24:31] Thibault Souyris: Sure. So, I mean, I have, I have for, for reps who are, you know, let's say not really helped, you know, with training budgets that are, you know, in thousands or whatever.

I have two courses, I have a course, which is called the new outreach system, which is really a course to, to help you understand how you build the sequence, what you say in the messages, you know, how you have your ICP and really kind of the overall system of building a routine for prospecting. So if you don't really.

If you really have nothing, you can actually start with that. Then if you've done this, you should actually get already some pretty good reply rates. But then another one is when I'm launching on Friday, which is called, I mean, where like the 12th of July. So in the 15th of July, it's be launching or launched if you're listening.

And the idea of this course is really to write the messages you have in here and the way I've done it, it's very simple. It's low production value. So I charge it like the first one is 149 Euro and the second one is 99 Euro. And as you know, there's always bundles on my website and discounts and everything.

So just, you know, do a bit of digging. And the idea is that it's not just a video course where I talk about concepts. I really talk about the concepts and then there's a notion. Dashboard or like a notion, just like it's kind of a super powerful Excel. And then you follow the, you know, resources and notion, you know, along with the course.

So I tell you, okay, this is how do U I C P this is what matters. Now do it with me. Here's an example. Here's how you do it. And you go and you progress. And you talk about this progression. And basically what we are building in the cold message system is a. Kind of table where you're gonna have your ICP and all their problem, messages, goals, all these things, but you won't actually have a huge overwhelming table to feel it's gonna be done step by step where you're gonna do it.

And at the end, you're gonna come with like a super precise message. Which is like really the trophy we have and it looks so simple and so easy, but it's really the, the, the result of all this work you've done before and filling this big table. So I've done it in a way that is not overwhelming. That is really simple.

Because I'm, I'm a pretty dumb guy. So I like when things are really simple and and I expect that, you know, I know that people like when things are simple.

[00:26:39] Darryl Praill: So I'm on your website right now. I'm on the, the new outreach system. Mm-hmm and I'm looking. Six bullets. And again, I wanna be clear folks.

We're not plugging in the course. It's a course. There's other courses out there, check it out. But of course mm-hmm, part of it's pedigree, right? I mean, we've got the B2B sales podcast. We have sales labs. I mean, the knows a thing or two. But I'm, here's what I'm resonating with. I'm looking at our own sales team here at a Agora, PTs and a ago, PTs, just for context, for those who are listening historically, we were an inbound model.

We did lots of SEO, lots of content you would, if you needed a social media platform we context for it would help anybody. We compete with vendors like sprout social or hoot suite. So we're in the top three. You would've come into us and then you would've had a classic SD. Follow up with you. And basically without dismissing our historical SDRs, they were very talented order takers.

You know, let me answer your questions. Gimme your credit card. Here we go. There was no. Plan, no incentive in place for those reps to expand the deal size, to multi-thread the opportunity to look to, to to push for annual agreements versus monthly agreements, all the usual stuff. Right. Mm-hmm so, you know, in the last I don't know, nine months or something, we've went in hard.

I'm building from scratch an outbound team to supplement the inbound team. So we're like kind of brand new at this ourselves, and I'm looking at what he's got on his course and I'm reacting to the pain we're experiencing internally. And I'm thinking to myself, when I'm done here, I need to call Jenny in my head of sales and say, Jenny, check out this score because he talks about And he goes, how I use LinkedIn to get a 38% replied rate at 27% meaning rate.

And then six bullets are laying the foundation trigger and lead hunting that jumps off the page, especially if we're trigger. And the word hunting love that. Cuz when you're an inbound company, the word hunting is foreign. You're an outbound company. Hunting is a whole new paradigm sequence and messaging.

I wanna circle back on that one, navigating conversations. So huge routine building. How many times have I talked to this? But guys, you gotta have time blocking. You gotta have routines. The routine is what makes you a machine and go faster and faster and faster. That is, and I love that he's got that. And video prospecting was his last bullet, which is so huge.

But the sequencing and the messaging, remember this all began by messaging, right? We talked about our outreach system and it was messaging. And you heard him talk about that, where we went through the progression of what's the one metric that goes to the goals, which goes to the initiatives, goes to the problems, which goes to the symptoms in your messaging.

So he talks about sequence of messaging. And what I find here is that most reps Beebo. Absolutely suck at sequencing and messaging and absolutely are in denial and think there are the king of the beast with, have you seen my sequence? It's a fricking incredible, it's amazing. And the results are horrific.

So what I love about this is, is that you're covering this all off. So in your course, here's my question for. How do you overcome a reps bias where they think they already get messaging and they think they already are the world's best sequence builder. How do you overcome that? Because for you to do achieve these goals, they have to follow your system.

Yeah. And if you're getting pushback from them, they're not gonna achieve these goals.

[00:30:19] Thibault Souyris: So very, very, very good. So what, what we have is when people often purchase the course for themselves, they know they have a problem. So they come to me on LinkedIn and they say, Hey, I saw your course. And you know, I'm also say, okay, what's your reply rate?

What's your meeting rate. And then they say, oh, it's 2%, 0% say, okay, you have a problem, right? Yeah. They say, okay, can you tell me a bit more about the messages you sent? And then they say, oh, we talk about this. They say, no, just send me a message. And then I love to see that they send me like you know, it's basically another version of the Bible or whatever is just huge.

Yep. And then I go and say, okay. So, I mean, if you received a message like that, what would you. And the answer is always the same. I would ignore it and say, good. That's what they're doing right now. So that's the thing is when I'm in sessions, it's a lot simpler to do. But when people are in this you know, in this course, what I tell them is just, if you have questions, drop me a message and I'll actually send back to you an answer.

And so that's when you see the, the ones that are really having great results are the ones who are taking that. And I did the session recently with 20 reps and, and it was crazy cuz it, it came from the top, but the reps were like, oh, we're the best and, and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And they kind of started building it again.

And I was like, you didn't listen on anything. You didn't, you know, I just like re read it again and again. And basically they really, another version didn't work. And I was like, Okay. You know, this is a problem. You just don't think your message is bad. And that's the issue. We, you know, we spend money, your company spend money for solving that, but you just didn't get it.

So sometimes, you know, you can't really get them to change their mind, but in most cases, people who buy the course themselves, they actually have this this mind, you know, this mindset to change.

[00:31:56] Darryl Praill: All right. So let's bring this full circle. What did Thibaut just say there? He said they weren't listening no matter what he said.

And by the way, because of that, they got the exact same poor results that they got before. So let me ask you folks who are listening a really hard question. It's a personal question. What do you value more? Okay. It's serious question. Do you value your ego or do you value your take home check? In other words, Would you be willing to be a little embarrassed or a little insecure in the short term, if it meant that you got a lot more money with a lot more zeros in commas and the long term personally, I am all over that.

Give an example. The other day, my CEO sends me a, we use loom here a lot to record videos. And so instead of typing up lots of documents internally for correspondence, if it's a longer conversation, we'll just do a video and we'll share it. Mm-hmm . And he said, he, he goes through this whole process. Hey Darryl, I wanna show you about how we're ranking for certain words or not ranking.

For certain words is really the thing. Look at the competition, da da, da, da. So, and I could have perceived that he was saying. Darryl, you could do a better job on our SEO. Cause that's really what he was saying. We weren't ranking high enough or we weren't paying the right ads for certain keywords.

Humility is how I responded. I respond to him saying awesome. Thank you. It is on my to-do list. Just so you know, but you're right. We do suck on those words right now. I did cover that already and I'm gonna get to it, but I love that you're finding it. And bring it to my attention. I will talk to that individual soon.

Thank you. And here's the next part I said, by the way, please keep sending me your insights. Don't. Stop because I am so busy that I don't have all the answers. I don't see everything. You are a neutral, independent outsider. You pick up on things that I'm not picking up on, cuz I'm heads down or I think I'm right.

And then you're gonna observe something that says maybe you're not right Darryl, like, cuz we're not ranking for these keywords. So you must suck over here. I said, so please keep sending me where I could improve. I said, cuz it really helps me become a better marketer. His response back sends me a video.

He says, Darryl, I love that. You said that he goes, when I share this feedback with you, it's not to embarrass you or humiliate you or scare you. It's simply because I've, I've noticed it. And I think we can do better. And I want you to be aware so that you can do better because if you do better, you get a bigger bonus.

And he goes, so that's it. He goes, you can ignore me. You can do whatever you want to, but if you ignore me, you ignore me at your peril and he's not threatening my job. What he's trying to tell me is, is I can achieve greater results and he's gonna help me and I can choose to be indignant. I can choose to be upset.

I can choose to be insecure. I can let my ego get in the way. Or I can choose to be open and receptive and evaluate the message and the advice and the teaching and the program and let my success speak for itself. That's what this is about. This is about you having proper outreach or as we began at the very beginning of the show, it's about Thibaut and I.

Having more friends because it's all about doing proper outreach guys. I've enjoyed our conversation today. I wanna repeat what we talked about here. This is an outreach system. You can check out You'll see it on our courses, but more importantly, I wanted you to meet Theo. He's a pretty cool cat.

I like him. His system's pretty slick, but if you don't use his system, then use his framework. Remember his framework was this. Name your ideal customer profile. When you know that, what is the one metric that matters to that target such as your head of sales? What is the goal related to that metric? What is the initiative required to achieve that goal?

For example, maybe hire more people. What are the problems related to this initiative? Maybe it's training people. And then what are the symptoms related to the message? What are the symptoms related? To the problems cuz those symptoms drive your message. That's really what I'm trying to say. So then when your outreach happens, you're focusing on the message and you're tying it back again.

One of the questions you like to get asked all the time is why change? Why now? Why me? If you start with the message, you can tie it back to the problem. You can tie it back to the initiative. You can tie it back to the goal. You can tie it back to the metric. It goes both directions. And that's why change that goal.

Is why change? Why now? Why me? That's why you do it. That's Thibaut, he's pretty cool. Any final words you wanna share my friend?

[00:37:17] Thibault Souyris: I mean I don't think I have too many crazy final words to say. Just thank you so much for having me and letting me talk about my, my, just my life, you know, all these things.

And yeah, it was super enjoyable for me. So if people want to know more LinkedIn, and as you said,, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[00:37:35] Darryl Praill: All right. Remember guys and gals, we're a community we're here to help each other out. We're here to share knowledge, share wisdom, share mistakes, share stories.

And if you got a few extra friends for Thibaut and I send sent him our way in the meantime, I'll see you right here next week on the inside inside sales show to care folks. Bye bye.

This episode was digitally transcribed.

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