The Sales IQ Podcast

Must-Haves for Fast Sales Success, with Ellis Abrahams

November 17, 2021
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The Sales IQ Podcast

Join us as host of the show Luigi Prestinenzi talks to thought leaders from around the globe about the art and science of sales and marketing, personal development, and the mindset required to sell more everyday. Luigi is a master of creating pipeline and breaking down targets, he specializes in helping sales professionals build the mindset to achieve greatness and #bethebestyoucanbe.

If you're new to sales or not feeling on your game right now, this episode is essential listening. At only 18 months into his first sales role, Ellis Abrahams hit 185% of his quota last quarter. Find out how he set himself up for fast success (hint: it all starts with the right mindset).

In this episode of the Sales IQ Podcast, he shares with Luigi:

• What prospects attribute his unique cut-through to.

• Two things we can all keep at the front of our mind to lift our mindset.

• The specifics of his cadence (we knew you'd want it).

• His surprising must-have sequencing tool (and the reason it's his favourite).

• How he's sidestepped pitfalls like leading with closing notes and 'spray and pray.'

• How to get the most out of training and development.


LINKS 🔗

Find Ellis on LinkedIn.

Connect with Luigi on LinkedIn.

Want to #TransformYourSales? Check out the Create Pipeline Program Luigi and Ellis talk about.

Luigi Prestinenzi
CEO & Co-Founder @ Sales IQ + Host @ Sales IQ Podcast
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Ellis Abrahams
Market Development Specialist (Enterprise-ANZ), DocuSign
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[00:00:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: Welcome. This is the Sales IQ Podcast. My name is Luigi Prestinenzi, and I'm on a mission to help salespeople be the best sales professionals they can be each week. We'll bring you a different message from thought leaders around the globe so we can help you master the art of selling.

What's the difference between a high performing sales professional and a mediocre sales professional? It's the action one decides to take. Our entire focus of this week's episode is on action. And we're joined by Ellis Abrahams, who is an SDR at DocuSign, who I've had the privilege of coaching for a number of months through one of our Create Pipeline programs. And he's going to share with us today, the action that he has taken that helped him achieve 180% above target for last quarter.

And that's amazing when you think about it, he's achieved incredible results. He's got people within the organization that are approaching him saying, Hey, can you help me achieve similar results? How are you doing it? Now? I'd love to take all the credit because we've been coaching him for months and he's been taking our content.

And really owning the content and turning it into incredible outcomes, but what's allowed him to achieve these outcomes is the action that he takes. Each and every day, and he's going to talk about his cadence. He's going to talk about the number of touches that he puts into his cadence and how he thinks about the message and how he puts the message forward and the trigger events that he uses. But what's really awesome about this particular episode is the mindset that Ellis takes into his role each and every day.

Revenue operations is much more than words in. It's a movement that is transforming sales, marketing, and customer success teams into high-performing revenue. Revenue.io is a recognized Gartner cool vendor that makes RevOps possible by driving improved operational efficiency and revenue capture from sale. Marketing and customer success trusted by the top companies across the globe. Revenue.io offers a complete sales engagement, conversational intelligence, and revenue intelligence platform for Salesforce customers learn how we can transform your results at Revenue.io. That's revenue dot io.

Every week, you hear me talk about mindset. You hear me talk about the importance of mindset and how it can become. You competitive differentiator. And that is what you're going to hear in this conversation with Ellis today. And what really inspires me about Ellis is that he approaches things with not just a growth mindset, but he has no fear. He has no fear on executing.

His cadence reaching out to senior and he reaches out to some very senior people and he goes that extra step. Knowing that he's prepared to do more than what his competition is prepared to do. That is a big takeaway from this. Now I've had, I've had the pleasure of coaching Ellis for months, and I've absolutely loved seeing how every single week during a session, he's something, he takes it down and he's no pad. Then he executes. And that is what this whole episode is about. It's about taking action. As you're listening to this episode, think about what are the actions. That you can take that will help you differentiate yourself in the marketplace and help you elevate to be the very best you can be.

Welcome to the show Ellis!

[00:03:49] Ellis Abrahams: Thanks Luigi, it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:03:50] Luigi Prestinenzi: Mate, I'm pumped. I'll tell you why I'm pumped to have you on our show. Because we're going to talk about actively. Doing stuff. And just just before we get and people are going to go, what the hell are you talking about actively doing stuff. But, you know, unlike many of the guests that we have on our podcast, you're in the trenches every single day, creating self-generating pipeline for yourself in your role at DocuSign. But before we get into that conversation of how you can generate more quality opportunity pipeline, Three cold outreach. I'd love to learn a bit more about you and tell us a bit more about the role that you're working in at DocuSign.

[00:04:29] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah, for sure. So I suppose a bit about myself. I am, I came from a professional rugby background, which I'm somebody that is styles for about two and a bit years.

And sort of being in that rugby background is competitive. It's a competitive. And I wanted to emulate that when I came into the corporate world and I thought sales was the best place for me to do that. But then I'm sort of ending my career with with an injury that I couldn't sort of come back from.

So ended up in, fell into recruitment, which very similar to sales. But it wasn't really what I was looking for. And then COVID hit and I was made redundant and didn't realize. Any, any options and then saw the SDR as an SDR at DocuSign and then was in that role for a year and a progressive there now to a, to an APO.

[00:05:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: Well, okay. So man, I think that's a pretty, pretty defining moment. Right? So you ended your career. It wasn't something that obviously you planned, right? No, that's all. Okay. And sort of tell us a bit about what you were going through from a mindset you obviously had planned on building a long-term career as a, as an F. And then all of a sudden you have to make a transition. What was going through your mind when that happened?

[00:05:39] Ellis Abrahams: I'll tell you what it was. It was really tough. So I was, I was over in the UK in one of the premiership sides over there. And essentially on the same day of my injury, I was told that the contract was no longer valid.

And so I was stuck in the, in the UK I brought my fiance over with me as well who wasn't working. So I was the sole income earner, and I suddenly didn't have any income was paying rent, paying for college. Well, those sorts of things. So it made the tough decision that I made. It's a blessing in disguise because it was just before COVID made the tough decision to just sort of give up on that dream over there and come back here.

But I think for myself it was, it was obviously a tough period. I think it was three or four months. I was unemployed, no other rugby players wanted me because of the injury. And I just sort of decided, you know, I need to go into something that's stimulating and exciting where I can have different conversations every day and I'm chasing something that's rewarding and that's sort of why I ended up here and here in sales.

[00:06:34] Luigi Prestinenzi: Wow, and what attracted you to sales?

[00:06:38] Ellis Abrahams: It's a funny, funny story. Right? So my my old man's been in sales his whole life, and I've been in the car with him, making conversations and seeing the sort of highs and also seeing the lows. And I think when you compare that to a competitive sport environment, it's incredibly similar.

There's a lot of chasing highs and when you get them, it feels great and it's hard work to get. And obviously I expect there to be lows, but because I had dealt with that in the career, I knew that sales would probably be the place where I could thrive.

[00:07:11] Luigi Prestinenzi: I keep hearing this, you know, I've spoken to a few athletes that made the transition into, into the corporate world and it's really interesting the way in which they look at business life versus being a professional athlete. And we have so much to learn, I think, especially in sales, that if we can take that mindset of a, of an athlete into the the role of a sales professional, we can really elevate and achieve that high performance.

So you've been at DocuSign for what 18 months, two years?

[00:07:40] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah it's about 18 months now.

[00:07:42] Luigi Prestinenzi: Okay. Obviously we'll talk a bit about your start, but tell us about some of the results that you've been able to achieve this last couple of months.

[00:07:50] Ellis Abrahams: I have been able to be pretty successful and, you know, I put that down to, down to our training. I mean, coming into the, into the role. I obviously understood the mindset side of things, but, you know, I have no idea how to comp no idea how to prospect. So yeah, I think I have been able to be successful over the last sort of six months as I stepped into the role.

[00:08:11] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah and look, let's, let's be transparent. Right. So for all of our listeners out there, Ellis is part of that. He is getting coaching from us here at Sales IQ and this is one of the reasons why I've asked him to come on the podcast because he's, he's achieving some incredible results taking the content that we're sharing with him and he's changing it into action. So this is why we've asked Ellis because he's doing things right now that there are many people are struggling to achieve and you're exceeding target month on month. And not just by 10 or 20.

[00:08:41] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing that doing quite well. Yeah.

[00:08:44] Luigi Prestinenzi: Give us a number, but what did you do last month?

[00:08:46] Ellis Abrahams: I finished last quarter at 185%.

[00:08:50] Luigi Prestinenzi: Oh, we need the bell. There it is. There. That's pretty good, man. So 180%, but one of the things that really stood out for me when we're doing, what about coaching session? Do you spoke about your touches from an outreach perspective? And your cadence. Tell us a bit about your cadence and how many touches your cadence covers over what period of time?

[00:09:13] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. So I suppose in regards to cadence, I have adopted the combo prospecting. So I'd do my channeling of approaches all within the space of sort of 90 seconds. And yep. I think in average, I've worked out and obviously this varies dependent on job title and where they, where they sit within the decision-making chain.

I would put anywhere between 14 to 18 touches. And the reason that is, is I don't want to give up, I've got, I know that I can help them. And I know that without talking about the products, I know that there are there's value that I can bring to these people. And everyone talks about there being a sort of fine line between being a nuisance.

And I'm trying to get in touch with somebody, but. I think I've heard someone say before, you know, you don't know what their schedule is. You don't know when they're in meetings, you don't know anything that's going on in their life. Really you're, you're trying to give them value and trying to help them.

And as long as you portray that you're trying to help them. I don't think you're pestering. That's all you're trying to give them results.

[00:10:15] Luigi Prestinenzi: That's amazing. And that's the first thing. The first learning that I took from you was you have a real mindset. You've got that real sales, professional mindset, which is I'm here to help and serve you. And I'm here to help achieve a result. So tell us the structure of your messages. How do they sound? So if you were to call me. You know, I'm a CFO because you're also selling into the C level. You're also selling into, into some pretty senior people. How does that message sound?

[00:10:42] Ellis Abrahams: In, in regards to how it sounds is it's obviously tailored for, for that person, right? Because there's no point in me bringing someone in HR and telling them how to run the operations of the organization. So it has to be tailored for that individual. And what I've done is I've broken it down. And we sort of had a tobacco, the training, we had a team initiative to break down what the values are and what we bring to certain individuals.

And that's exactly what I lead with. So I suppose as a, as a bit of an example, hi, Luigi Ellis here from DocuSign, I've got a few ideas how you can improve operational efficiency in a way that will reduce risk. When can we find 20 minutes? And it be surprised a lot of people go as if you've hit that initial part on the head and you know, there, there are two KPIs then other people will just go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does. It does. Let's find time next week.

[00:11:36] Luigi Prestinenzi: Do you ever get people that say, say to you, sorry, Ellis. What's this about? Or were, are you calling for.

[00:11:41] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. Most definitely most definitely. And then, well, if I, if I'm leading with efficiency and I want to stay along the efficiency line, if it's someone in operations, I'll say, look, yeah, completely appreciate the question. It's about driving efficiency by putting an end to printing, signing and scanning.

[00:11:57] Luigi Prestinenzi: Fantastic. And then you've got them kind of a point of engagement.

[00:12:02] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. I think it's very important. I haven't spoken about what we do at all. Like I said, you know, from being a DocuSign, there's a range of different things that we can do for them, but haven't overcomplicated.

I've kept it to a couple of things and I want the person to ask me how, and then I can show them, you know, this is what other organizations have done. This is an as we get deeper through that sales process, that's when that stuff is uncovered.

[00:12:29] Luigi Prestinenzi: And tell us when you first started, was this the approach you were leading with or did you lead you with a different approach?

[00:12:37] Ellis Abrahams: No, not really. So I didn't start with this approach to the approach that I started with was phone and phone often, whether that's, you know, a double dial or call before work, call midday. Call every day, it was just, I need to catch someone on the phone so I can I can have that conversation with them really and breakthrough.

But at first I was asking more. So if a conversation I was implying to you, the benefits they could get. So before approaching, I was like, oh, everyone knows with DocuSign. Does someone signed a mortgage? Someone signed a, a tax agreement or something along those lines that don't sign. So whatever they need to tell them what we did.

So I was never talking about. But I just was never in the first instance, I wasn't leading with value, which was closing notes.

[00:13:25] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah. And you know, what's interesting, right? Like if you actually think about it, what DocuSign does, it's a very simplistic process, right? It just allows you to sign a document electronically when you actually think about how easy that, that solution.

But you're right. Like people aren't looking for the document to be signed electronically. They're looking for a certain outcome. They're looking for, it could be a contract, a sales contract that could sit in someone's inbox and they're just not going to get a chance to print it out. And that could delay the deal from going through.

So, you know, from a, from a seller perspective, it's allowing them to shorten the sales. Bringing cash quicker, right? They reached the business with the cashflow perspective. So there's all these improved benefits that come from and I'll get this myself, you know, I'll get a lot of emails and we've seen this during our coaching session, Ellis, where the emails are all product led.

This is the features of what we do. And it doesn't kind of engage with me at all. You know, what's interesting about hearing about your cadence is you've got this incredible attitude when it comes to the volume of touches. I want to go back to that for a moment, you know, do you ever get people that are are saying to you, like this is too many touches or, you know, what's, what's some of the responses you're getting from people.

[00:14:41] Ellis Abrahams: If I can, if I can leave with that value and deliver my message, please. And I suppose in a using tone and you know, all those, all those sorts of little tricks, what you find is that the people often pick up the phone and apologize. They open the conversation with an apology for missing your calls and not replying to your emails.

Then they give you a reason as to why. And it immediately breaks that cold conversation because they're starting with an apology. Which is yeah, it's very interesting. And that was a fear that I did have in the, in the first instance, was, are these people just going to tell me to go away or am I really annoying them?

But the fact is, if you believe in what you're going with and you can show them how you can help them. No, I'm not, I'm not trying to sell to them. I'm trying to give them the benefits.

[00:15:31] Luigi Prestinenzi: And if you are using a sequencing tool or are you, you're running this kind of on your own?

[00:15:39] Ellis Abrahams: Completely on my own manually. And the reason for that is if I did rely on a sequencing tool, I would, I feel like in myself, I would rely on the automation of it and I don't want it to be that way because then I lose the, the tailored aspects of going in and finding the strong trigger and then tailoring that to that persona. So I have basically mapped out my whole territory, every account that sits in my territory in an Excel sheet.

And I record all my notes and all my comments and all the conversations that I've had in that sheet. And then that also provides me with my strategy. I know who I need to speak to. I know where the buying chain changes.

[00:16:19] Luigi Prestinenzi: This is awesome, man. So, you know, I'm, I'm taking heat or getting heaps of heaps of sort of questions popping up in my mind around this stuff. But again, I, I actually want to go back a step because you're not using a sequencing tool. You'll, you know, you're, you're conducting very personalized using trigger events to engage. What are some of the metrics and like how many outreach attempts are you conducting a day to your target market within your target market?

[00:16:47] Ellis Abrahams: The beauty of it is because it's so tailored. I get more cool connects. I get more people pick up. I get more people booking time in my diary. So in actual fact, I don't have to do a huge amount of outreach because. I get people come back. Like I get people open emails, they reply to me. So I know what's going on in that sense.

But if I was to put a number on it, I'd probably aim for 15 a day and try and do them in a two hour block and around that two hour block or use the morning to plan. So who am I calling? What are the triggers? What's my value and why. And then that's who I was purely just for prospects.

[00:17:27] Luigi Prestinenzi: Okay. And that's when you're personalizing doing combo phone, text, email, LinkedIn,

[00:17:34] Ellis Abrahams: and it's all flattened out because I've done that in the morning

[00:17:37] Luigi Prestinenzi: and you're getting, you know, 10, 15% conversion on that.

[00:17:40] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. So something along those lines. I mean, when I w when I'm most using an automated tool, the open rate or the reply rate was like straight in the center. And it was just because you can't mass personalized. There's no, To be able to do it. I mean, there's all these little you know, you can use snippets and all those sorts of things, but it's just not granular enough. So individual,

[00:18:00] Luigi Prestinenzi: and look, we know we're line Ellis, cause this is exactly what we talk about every week during our coaching sessions. And I think this is the challenge that we have as a profession. Right? We've got these incredible tools out there, like the Outreaches and the Revenue.ios, which are amazing tools, sales, lofts, limbless we can reel them off.

Right. And they're great because you can. But again, if we're engaging with a C level executive or a senior decision maker in order to stand out, we need to make it really relevant for them. We need to show them that we've done a level of research that shows, Hey, this is the research we've done on you and your company.

Not I'm taking a snippet of where you went to university or which football club you enjoy too. Like, do you know what I mean? Cause that's kind of irrelevant. If it's not connected with that personalization component of why we are reaching out and how it connects them to the outcome.

[00:18:53] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah. That's it. And if you hit the nail on the head, I mean, you have to get granular with these, these these C-levels are probably receiving, you know, anywhere in excess of 500 emails a week from sellers, and you have to find a way to differentiate yourself within that market in order to get a result.

And I mean, if the end result is just booking a meeting, That's fine. You've looked to me and you can understand about their business. You can have a relationship now with that person, they will give you if they can see the effort that you've gone to. I can, hands-down say they'll give you 20 minutes..

[00:19:25] Luigi Prestinenzi: And just on your, on your cadence. So you're doing it between 14 to 18. You're doing sort of 18 touches over what a 10 day or a 15 day period.

[00:19:34] Ellis Abrahams: So I do that over yeah. About 15 day period. And honestly I do it. I condense those touches, right? So it's not 14 spread out one a day, potentially, you know, phone, voicemail, email LinkedIn message.

Yep.

In one block within a minute and a half. And, you know, as, as Tony sort of alluded to, you want them to know that you're trying to get ahold of them and it's not, it's not pestering your, as like, as I keep saying, you know, as long as you've got that message. Then it's not estranged. It wouldn't be seen that way by them.

[00:20:09] Luigi Prestinenzi: You're doing, you're doing a combo, then you're backing it up. What is it? A day gap or two day gap. What's the gap? Well,

[00:20:16] Ellis Abrahams: to be honest with you, it depends on how, like, if I've had insight into an account where I know this person is the decision maker, I know there's something going on home and it's time sensitive. There's no gap. My kid's just, on-going hard at that person because I need that conversation. But if it's a completely cold account, I try and have a days gap and no, no for the persistent, not inferior being persistent, but also because that they allows me to come up with another strategy, like another trigger, and I'll spend that time scrolling through LinkedIn, go through a website, trying to find something that might be stronger.

[00:20:53] Luigi Prestinenzi: Well you're doing is in the, in the post, in your next combo. If you haven't had a response. You're adding another trigger to reinforce the value proposition that you're putting forward.

[00:21:06] Ellis Abrahams: Yeah, that's right. Because the way I see it is the trigger is the reason for me to reach out. Yeah. If I only have one reason and that reason wasn't good enough in the first instance, then I want to reinforce it.

So I want to say, you know, I also saw this and then hit them with the other one. And then suddenly I'm hoping, obviously I'm not on the, on the buying side, but I'm hoping in their head, they're thinking, you know, oh, he's researched into this. He aligns with this. She's clearly going to give me benefits, but this, oh, he's also seen this and he's going to give me benefits in regards to this.

[00:21:45] Luigi Prestinenzi: And are you threading the emails forwarding. Okay. Yep. Yep.

[00:21:50] Ellis Abrahams: Yep. I started doing something else that I've. Which has been quite successful as well. If I get to the back of that 14 touches and I've realized you're not sending five emails on that thread, or I'll start a newsletter. Okay. Because in my head I'm thinking, you know, there must be a reason why they haven't come back to that one.

Maybe they just haven't seen it. But the likelihood is if this person's getting 500 emails a week, they won't even know who else is around it because I haven't been through yet.

[00:22:17] Luigi Prestinenzi: And it's funny, you know, when I looked at, I did some research and I think we spoke about this a couple of weeks. Average person is getting about 80 notifications a day at minimum, you know, and we think a phone call or an email or a voicemail, and we're pestering them.

They're not even seeing, they would've been seeing it when pestering him. Right. So it's interesting that you're starting new threads and I love the fact that you're, you're adding extra triggers to make the connection even more compelling, which is fantastic. And so you are leveraging an omni-channel approach. Are you using video yet in your prospecting or is it purely?

[00:22:53] Ellis Abrahams: Just, yeah, just just those so phone call, voicemail, LinkedIn text message. Yeah, I'm trying all of those ones. I have thought about video. But my space is public sector and I think that's a bit forward in that space. Just from the feedback and I'm I do.

I think it's similar to you, Louie. I ask prospects why they decided to speak with me. Like what was it in my messaging that stood out to them?

[00:23:22] Luigi Prestinenzi: And what did they tell you

[00:23:24] Ellis Abrahams: More often than not? Because I got the persona KPIs, right?

[00:23:27] Luigi Prestinenzi: Bang yet. And again, you know, I think for most of our listeners, we keep talking about the persona and we in Ellis hear me bang on about this pretty much every week.

But the persona and the ICP, a fundamentally that the foundation that we build our messaging frameworks on. So mate I really appreciate your sharing this. So look, you've been in the seat. You haven't even been in the seat for two years. You're achieving amazing results. You've got a. A journey in front of you.

That's going to really see you become an incredible sales professional. For anyone that's getting into the seat for the first time or that's really struggling with their outreach at the moment. What advice could you give them that would help them feel really revitalized about the whole premise around outreach?

[00:24:13] Ellis Abrahams: I think there's two points to this. The first one is mindset. You have to have that mindset where. You know, you want an answer. You don't want the outreach that you do to go to waste by a non-response. So you want an answer and you've got to have that mindset, you know, there is going to be rejection. Wait, we're hopeful.

We're not going to resonate with everyone and we're not gonna always get it. Right. But the fact is, if you have that mindset that you're picking up the phone and you're, you're going to have these conversations, you're going to do these child approaches. You're not pestering them. That's that's a key part.

And the second part is planning. I mean, I can hop on about it enough and I block out two hours every morning for planning because without a plan, how can I expect to succeed in my cold, call block? I, I can't just have a list of numbers to call and just use a spray, a spray and pray talk track. It's got to be personalized and it's got to relate to their KPIs.

Otherwise, as I said, you know what, what's the point of calling a CFO about HR rumble. Yeah, you have to get that those things, right.

[00:25:20] Luigi Prestinenzi: Relevance and personalization is key right. And I think I love what I loved about what you said is, and there's a great quote by Winston Churchill that says, you know, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Right? And I think planning and mindset is an incredible important component when it comes to selling. And we speak about this every single week and I can't believe so many sellers are just going into sales process without actually doing any research on the buyer and without personalizing it to make anything relevant and in thinking the message is going to stick, because regardless whether you're doing inbound or outbound, if you don't do that level of research and prepare the right message, they're both not going to deliver the results you're looking for.

[00:25:56] Ellis Abrahams: You're exactly right. And you know, you might, you might get it wrong. Sometimes you might get it wrong. Also possible will ask you to also the prospect's feedback. I know, and that's quite hard thing to do, but. I'll ask why, and then you'll realize where the KPI's that you might've got wrong or where your messaging you might've got wrong. And then you can. You can change it.

[00:26:17] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah, mate. Well, this has been awesome. And I know, look, I think we've got so much more content that we can go through here. And I think in my eyes Ellis, I think there's a, there's a potential webinar coming up with me and you should be talking about how to build, I've done one. I just did one, actually had to build a high converting patients. And I think main, you should actually do one based on your cadence, but where can our listeners connect and find you.

[00:26:39] Ellis Abrahams: Ellis Abrahams, feel free to connect, I'm more than happy to field questions. And I mean, if there's anything that's sort of hit a nerve in, in what we've discussed today, feel free to reach out and I'm even happy to explain further.

[00:26:50] Luigi Prestinenzi: Yeah. Well, man, this is awesome. And I appreciate you, man. I mean, I love, I've loved getting to know you through our coaching sessions. It's been awesome. I love the fact. I see you taking, you know, noted every session. And you're obviously going away and taking action immediately. So this is awesome, man.

And I just want to say, thanks for allowing me the opportunity to coach you and provide you with some feedback and some content that's helping you in your career, man. And I just can't wait to see sort of where you get to in this, in this career

[00:27:17] Ellis Abrahams: and same to you. Thanks for the, thanks for the sessions there.

They're hugely valuable. And as, as you can see, I mean, training is training unless you put it into action, right? So. I I try and do it immediately. All of the things that we discussed to try and do it immediately, and it's been a huge contributor in my ability to be successful is the fact that I just put it into practice and see what happens.

[00:27:38] Luigi Prestinenzi: Bang. Well, thanks man for coming on the podcast.

[00:27:41] Ellis Abrahams: Cheers. Thank you.

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